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Authenticity is Everything
Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio: Authenticating Baseball Forger Favorites
While it would require far more than a single article to educate the autograph collector to detect Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio forgeries, there are some general as well as specific warning keys to these three autographs that may aid in detecting possible forgeries.
Genuine Mantle, Williams & DiMaggio signed photo provided by EAC Gallery.
Click to enlarge:
As a general rule, one of the first things I examine in an autograph is its feel – how it was written. When an individual signs his name there should be an easy, smooth flow to the signature. We’ve all signed our names countless times, and we don’t need to think about it. An item we offered in one of our past auctions was a sheet of paper signed several times by Joe Jackson. Jackson, who was almost completely illiterate, actually had to practice, in essence work at, writing his name prior to signing documents. Likewise, when a forger writes a signature, he or she is working at it and therefore upon close examination it’s often possible to detect such warning keys as a slowness of motion, stops and starts at inappropriate spots, and possibly even a shakiness in the writing. An invaluable aid to help detect these keys, taught to me by John Reznikoff of University Archives many years ago, is to turn the autograph upside down. When you view an autograph in an unnatural position these warning keys are often easier to detect.
In addition to such general warning keys there are specific warning keys, unique to an individual’s autograph, to keep an eye out for.
In the 1980’s and 1990’s Mickey Mantle stated on numerous occasions that he was blessed to be able to earn more money signing his name at one single weekend show than his father had earned in an entire year working as a coal miner. Because of this Mantle always felt his fans were deserving of a clear, elegant signature. In authentic Mickey Mantle autographs Mickey would always end the “y” in “Mickey” on an upswing, and because he would be quickly flowing through his signature, he therefore started the “M” in “Mantle” on a higher level or plane than he had started the “M” in “Mickey”. Most forgers, because they were “working” on writing Mantle’s signature, would pause after completing “Mickey” and begin anew in writing “Mantle”, therefore placing “Mantle” on more of a straight line with “Mickey”. If one places a ruler or sheet of paper straight across the item Mantle signed (not straight across the signature) all that appears below the ruler or paper of an authentic Mantle is the bottom portion of the “M” in “Mickey”. In the case of most forgeries the ruler or paper completely covers the entire signature. Another difficulty forgers have with Mantle’s signature was his unique way of looping the bottom portion of his “M”. Such curved lines were executed in one easy movement by Mantle, but are most often elongated by forgers who again are “working” the signature. Such slow, elongated forgeries are especially easy to recognize on baseballs as their curved surfaces only add to the forger’s difficulty.
In the case of Ted Williams autographs, with the exception of the capital “W” in Williams, Ted would consistently make the size of all the letters in his last time nearly the same exact size. Most telling is the “illia”, with the “l”s just ever so slightly taller than the “i”s, and the “a” as tall as the “l”s. Try as they may, most forgers simply can’t undo years of training and habit causing their “l”s to be significantly taller than their “i”s, and their “a” significantly shorter than their “l”s. Williams also connected the “W” in “Williams” to the “ed” in “Ted” with a swirl that gave forgers difficulty in replicating in the same, easy, flowing movement as appears in authentic examples. Also of interest, in addition to the many Williams intentional forgeries in existence, Williams revealed late in his life that during his playing days his signature on team signed balls was often a “clubhouse” example, not penned by him.
Regarding Joe DiMaggio’s autograph, problems for forgers begin with the first letter in Joe. Like the “M”s in Mantle’s autograph, the “J” in “Joe”, which appears as two loops, a larger loop on top and a smaller one below, were created by curved lines which are the hardest to duplicate without leaving telltale signs of slowness or inappropriate stops and starts. In addition, DiMaggio would pen his “J”s so that the lower loop would be written on top of (literally written over) the upper loop in two places. For some inexplicable reason, a significant percentage of DiMaggio forgeries flow in the opposite direction, with the upper loop covering the lower one. An inexpensive magnifier or jeweler’s loop will aid in viewing this detail. Finally, the general feel of an authentic DiMaggio autograph is often somewhat sloppy, in the sense that the spacing between letters is uneven, obviously much more so in his second name. Again due to the fact that forgers are working rather than simply signing, the spacing they place between each letter is far more uniform.
Finally, the age-old adage “experience is the best teacher” is indeed appropriate here. The building of as extensive a library of exemplars as possible, of both authentic and fake examples, would be of help to visualize these and additional warning keys, and tremendously assist in the detection of forgeries.
Tags: authenticate, baseball, dimaggio, fame, forgeries, forgers, genuine, hall, hof, joe, More…
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on
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The seller re-listed the above item. If the seller thinks their Mantle autograph is genuine, then I challenge them to either submit it to PSA's "Quick Opinion" or submit it to PSA or JSA directly. If it passes PSA or JSA, not only will I purchase the item, but I will pay for the authentication fee.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mickey-Mantle-Autographed-8x10-Photo-on-12x...
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Permalink Reply by DB on
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and it's only $7.50 for a qo not $100.00. And he claims EBAY has advised him to relist it. That seems odd to me.
I would like to add that I am not trying to falsely advertise this piece. Apparently some know it all on a blog that thinks almost all Mantle signatures are fake, says it's a pitiful signature and that I'm trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. I'm sorry I'm not willing to spend over $100 to have someone's "OPINION" put with a signature that I know is good. Back before this authentication SCAM started, you either bought something cause you thought it was real or you didn't. I've witnessed a VERY REPUTABLE company fail a Mantle ball that was UDA (UPPER DECK) certified and a DiMaggio picture that had several pics. of him signing it WITH THE GUY taking the piece in, 2 baseball's signed by Jeter at THE SAME TIME..one passed, one failed....so believe what you want. I stand behind this piece and all things I sell. If you think it's a fake..don't bid. Thank youBECAUSE OF THE SLANDEROUS AND LIBELOUS LINK TO MY AUCTION EBAY HAS ADVISED ME TO RELIST IT. Ref # 1-425-943-5562. If YOU that listed my item on your site as a fake, contact me again or post it again it can and will be considered harassment and constitute grounds for legal action PER EBAY BUYER PROTECTION.
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Thank you for posting his item description, DB.
I hope the seller reads this blog and my challenge to him. If the seller submits his Mickey Mantle autographed photo to either PSA or JSA, and it passes, not only will I buy his Mantle, I will pay for his authentication fee.
The thing is, he won't take me up on my challenge.
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Bingo!!!!
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Uh..yes I did as soon as I saw it...BINGO..and the item was removed becuase of people on here contacting eBay...You can get any item removed if it doesn't have a COA so that doesn't prove anything. As I stated stop acting like I'm some scumbag who goes around ripping people off. If I had a pattern of this or you knew me and knew i was a thief i'd understand but seriously??? WOW...Now I know how people in Salem felt during the witch hunts....
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I would like to know why I have been on eBay for 13 years and never had so much as a neutral yet I am being persecuted for trying to sell an item. I never said it was authenticated. It has an MLB sticker on it. Also I did speak to an eBay rep. about this link and they DID tell me to relist it because I had 3 mails telling me more or less that I'm some sort of scammer. If again, I was lying why would I post the ref. # in the auction. I'm sorry i don't know how to do a qo and it does cost at least $100 to have Mantle certified and I've seen full letter JSA ones sell for $75, so why would that make sense??? And JSA has been nailed for certifyng items of people that were dead before the items were signed so why would I pay for that?? I would like to thank all of you that attacked and got the auction of an HONEST SELLER kicked off eBay. I truly appreciate the distrust you seem to apparently show towards everyone to be directed towards me. I'll just put it back up in my man cave and display it proudly. Again thank you all so much.
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Mr. Kornfield, here's my challenge to you. Submit it directly to PSA for authentication. If PSA authenticates that particular Mantle signed photo, I will buy it from you for $500.00 and pay the $100.00 PSA authentication fee.
If PSA rejects that Mantle, you have to come on and post an apology for trying to sell a Mantle forgery.
Let us know.
If you want to go the inexpensive route, list it on Ebay and spend $7.49 for a Quick Opinion from PSA. The link is below. If the result comes back "Likely Not Genuine," then you post the same apology. If the result comes back "Likely Genuine," then I will PayPal you $50.00.
Let us know.
This is your opportunity to prove me wrong.
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Christopher...first off please stop treating me like I'm some sort of scammer who screws people for a living. Secondly I would NEVER ask you to pay an outrageous amt. of money like that. If it is indeed fake I will apologize for UNKNOWINGLY listing it..but will not word it how you have as you make it sound like I did it with malicious intent. I have submitted it for a quick opinion and am waiting for a response. BTW I was born in Neptune and lived with my grandfather at 15 main street in Bradley Beach when I was a young child so PLEASE try and take it down a notch. I have been getting attacked over this thing all day....
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Permalink Reply by Dane on
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How did you submit for a quick opinion when the listing no longer exists?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150878693598
Edit: I found the other listing.
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Mr. Kornfield, no one here is treating you like a scammer. We have this blog because we are sick or tired of the hundreds of thousands of forgeries that have infected the hobby and devalued the authentic autograph collections of true collectors.
When you have time, read this entire blog and look at the various Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio forgeries that we have exposed here.
If you made an honest mistake, then thank you for informing us that it was an honest mistake.
You're the one that wrote when you re-listed it "That you know it is good."
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I would like to publicly apologize for UNKNOWINGLY listing the piece. It did come back as "likely not genuine". So now you can feel bad for me because I'm the one who got scammed years back and I'm out what I paid for it. Next time I'll check on here before I buy something. Wish I had been aware of this page back then.
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