O.K. Art fanatics....Are these Pablo Picasso and Henri Matisse signed drawings authentic?

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Permalink Reply by 029r4yc06b4rr on December 17, 2011 at 10:30pm

Brandon, I wish i knew art better but im only limited to music items to be honest. But those are some huge names from the art world, and while i guess its possible the owner would choose Todd Mueller to consign too, i would think the odds of that are extremely slim. I mean why not put it in Sortherbys or Lelands and get huge money. Instead of a mans autction who basically is a no name as far as a major auction company. If i were just guessing based on that i would say that they are both probably fake. And judging by what we saw with the last couple pages of items you posted that were pretty much all fakes, its only reasonable to conclude these are too. But i could be very wrong. I just dont see someone consigning items like this to a guy like him though if they were genuine. I hope you can find some more music items to post soon from some of his other catalogs, they should be very entertaining for comic value.

Chris

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin-Moderator on December 17, 2011 at 11:59pm

Chris,

Some of the greatest finds are found in smaller auctions, believe it or not. And you might be surprised what is consigned to auctions you'd never expect. Nate Sanders is auctioning Orson Welles' Oscar for Citizen Kane. It's at $334,000 with three days left (there's probably a $500,000+ reserve). Why isn't it in Profiles, Julien's or Christie's? Who knows?

I don't know if the sketches are genuine or not, but Picasso sketches have even been found in pawn shops, and some have been found by authorities to be genuine. That said, this isn't really the right site to post these two sketches for opinions on anything but the signatures.

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Permalink Reply by 029r4yc06b4rr on December 18, 2011 at 6:28am

Oh wow Steve,

I never would have thought that would have been true. Maybe Picasso and others are more common than i think. I have always thought paintings like that are fought over by museum dealers and rich private collectors in really close knit circles. I dont know why, it just brings to mind visions of only the biggest and best auction houses carrying something like that. But were not talking the mona lisa here i guess. That is truly amazing about the citizen cane thing. That is mind boggling. I guess it just goes to show that rare stuff can pop up anywhere. Thanks for the correction, and the new info. 

Thanks Steve,

Chris

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin-Moderator on December 18, 2011 at 8:45am

Chris,

Not a correction, just telling you what I've seen. I don't know anything about the Edgar Kaufman estate, but anyone buying these pieces would hopefully have checked out their provenance and papers and had an independent expert look at them before they bid. Because you are definitely right to assume they're forgeries...until proven otherwise. The vast majority sold without industry standard documentation are.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin-Moderator on December 18, 2011 at 10:42am

Chris,

You made me curious, so I did a little research on Picasso and Matisse drawings and came up with this:

In a May, 2004 Chicago Tribune article, "DEALER CHARGED WITH FAKE ARTWORK" an art dealer, James F. Kennedy of Northbrook, IL, was arrested for trying to sell fake Picasso, Chagall and Matisse drawings and paintings. They found more than 300 pieces in his SUV. 

Here's an excerpt from the article:

[Delind] Gallery owner William DeLind called the FBI after Kennedy first presented him with three fake Picasso drawings in March, DeLind said. He requested that the drawings be sold for $15,000 to $40,000 apiece when the Picassos, if authentic, would be worth $250,000 each.

So Chris, while these pieces are not just sold at the top auction houses, I think you're far more right than me. With a minimum bid of $3,000 on the Picasso, this really doesn't smell right--even if it ended up selling for 10-times that.

Someone should ask real art experts about these. Maybe show them to William DeLind.

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on December 18, 2011 at 11:47am

Both

Here is an article I found about an FBI investigation into fake Picasso and Matisse drawings as well.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2004-05-22/news/0405220181_1_fak...

Then there is this article regarding the "Kaufmann Collection":

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10101/1049272-437.stm

Heritage Auctions states this: "If they don't have certificates from the appropriate Foundations, they are assumed to be fake."

Do we know of any respectable art dealers that can clear this up?

Are these items relatives of the items that the FBI found?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin-Moderator on December 18, 2011 at 12:50pm

Brandon,

I don't know anything about art, but I found the same article you did.

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Permalink Reply by 029r4yc06b4rr on December 18, 2011 at 11:48am

Steve,

That was a really interesting excerpt. Im glad they busted that guy. You were definetly right about smaller auctions having some really valuable stuff, and ill definetly know not to count them out from here on. But with this auction i think these are probably fakes. Thats what i first looked at too, was their starting bid of only 3 grand. I thought that genuine items were extremely expensive but wasnt real sure. But 250 grand, good grief, if these were real, they almost for sure would have a starting bid of a ton higher. And if they were real the bidding would have been probably so fast and extreme at that price that it would have even made news over here. But thats just my opinion. I hope an art expert chimes in here, or that maybe Rez can take a look at those sigs. It just doesnt add up to me. You truly do get what you pay for, and if i had paintings as rare as this, i would def be looking to get my moneys worth. I cant wait to here some more opinions on their authenticity. Im really glad Brandon put these up. Since Mueller and everyone over at ANL likes to trash this site so much and trash Roger so  much, then he shouldnt mind his own work being critiqued. I mean afterall, if things are legit, and if hes just as good as Roger, their should be no problem with his catalog items being looked at. Thanks for the info Steve, i agree with you all the way. This is very compelling to me.

Chris

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on December 18, 2011 at 11:54am

That's the point Chris.  I don't know if they are, not many people in this world are truly legit art experts ( there are shady "experts" of course). Still, these items were placed into the market and then went where?

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Permalink Reply by DB on December 18, 2011 at 12:14pm

Last year while cruising with a very well known US auction house dealing mostly in art a Picasso Sketch had a starting bid of $95k - it was an original signed.

never fret, if they don't sell there is always coach's corner!

There is alot to be learn about art especially sketches and the plates they came from and when.    Money and overall worth decreases significantly with plates being used in later productions and utimately the net worth of a sketch money decreases as it is analagous to a fascimle.  Yes, the plate was originally signed but this is the upteenth production release....   Thus, in our world these would be fascimilie not original signatures if that were the case.

Incidently, have some in-person Krasnyanksi's & a peter max.

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on December 18, 2011 at 12:21pm

I think that these were offered as "original" drawings correct? Not  a print.  Which would make both the drawing and the signature separate forgeries.

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Permalink Reply by DB on December 18, 2011 at 12:45pm

I could "sit" to be corrected by the art con·nois·seur but as I recall, if they "indeed" came from an original plate signed by the artist then they would not be considered a forgery, per se.  Just not worth that much depending on which plate print release.  Sort of like buying prints at Home Depot or Home Goods.  It should however be completely described as such however,  If declaring them as "original" then that perhaps is somewhat larcenous from my perspective.

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