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TWA Flight 703- August 13, 1965: Beatles USA Tour

Nearly thirty years ago I purchased from the original owner a number of TWA Flight 703 memorabilia.  They included:

1- A TWA letterhead, envelope and TWA memo with all four Beatle member's signatures

2- A Parolophone "Help" in a green sleeve with first names

3- A Black & White TWA photograph with all four Beatle member's signatures

4- TWA black & white photographs at interview at NYC, NY, clippings, Associated Press articles

(1)- These match the "Ruth" full signatures on the back of an envelope, from same TWA source

(2)- This matches another sleeve with names in different positions on a Flight 703 site

(3)- This matches the Gisa Kothe, stewardess on flight, copy with faint orange Ringo Starr

www.schaarcommunictions.com/Beatles.Encounters.html

This Thread will take you to all known items #1, 2 and 3.  I include some of these on this site for your inspection and opinion.

1- I consider is authentic and Bill Liss watch the Beatles sign while on TWA Flight 703

2- I consider these to be Neil Aspinall first names, signed in the UK prior to the flight (?)

3- I consider these "likely to be authentic", but not certain.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Paul on December 17, 2015 at 1:33pm

The 45 may not be authentic, I couldn't see the last photo clearly.

Permalink Reply by SevenOut on December 17, 2015 at 2:00pm

Thank you Paul for your opinion.  I have to agree with you... but maybe a Neil Aspinall prepared with the release of "Help". (?)

3- The stewardess Gisa Kothe put her copy from Flight 703 at Clevedon Saleroom, Lot 413, 13 March 2014 with an estimated pre-auction value 400BP to 600BP.  Until I looked at MY photo closer, did I see the orange Ringo signature in the lower 1/4 of the photograph.  I did not notice it before and thought it lacked the "orange smudge" Ringo.  It is that faint, and the same on the Gisa Kothe copy.  The photo is so dark, a photograph makes it even more difficult. Ringo's is more of a smudge and consistent with the other copy as a comparison.  I add it for everyone's curiosity.

The Ruthie full set of signatures from Bill Liss must still be in the possession of Ruth.  I will upload her autographs that I also feel are authentic and signed on the Flight.  I also include the letter that came with my "memo set of signatures" for everyone's curiosity.

There is a possibility of some Black & White photographs to be found in one neighborhood that a co-pilot handed out to kids in his yard in New Jersey... if you read the Ted Schaar 2014 articles.  Maybe a THIRD set of autographs might be in a carton of an unsuspecting teen not giving it a thought since 1965!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 17, 2015 at 2:06pm

Welcome SevenOut,

What an exciting and interesting post! The link to your site didn't work for me, could you check it? You can edit your post from the options button below the Navbar, or post it in the discussion as a reply and I'll put it into your original post.

Thanks

Permalink Reply by SevenOut on December 17, 2015 at 2:13pm

I searched Google using Ted Schaar Beatles Flight 703.  There are at least three articles.  The Stewardess and Ruth's stories and my own.  I found these when searching the internet for what I had and was happy to see someone else had found these two TWA individuals.

The TWA envelope has a cancellation 19 August 1965 in New York City.

Imagine, today... sending this in an envelope sent First Class.  Bill Liss did not realize the importance of what he had folded into an envelope... "for the kids".

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on December 17, 2015 at 2:41pm
The first item contains Neil Aspinall proxy signatures. The rest don't appear to be authentic, with the possible exception of the Ringo sig on the photo, which is difficult to see.
Permalink Reply by SevenOut on December 17, 2015 at 3:48pm

These opinions are what make all of this so interesting!

From a telephone conversation between Ted Schaar and Bill Liss... he had commented that all of this commotion concerning the Beatles was of little interest to himself.  Although Bill Liss went through a lot of trouble with TWA photographs in New York and a collage of TWA press stories that also were part of my... hoard of Bill Liss material.

It would be very interesting to know Bill Liss and contact him directly about some of these comments.  THEN... get the "real story"... maybe.

With Beatles signatures forged with plenty of incentive to be made in the process... at least these were at no cost to Bill Liss, nor the stewardess or Ruth. Bill Liss's job was to promote TWA in the process of having the Beatles on this flight.  Someone might know if Neil Aspinall was on board, or not.  Common sense would say yes... considering the magnitude of this 1965 Tour.  Did Neil Aspinall... MEET... the Beatles when they arrived in New York City?  This would change some assumptions.

There are no assumptions made on my part what this accumulation represents or what is being misrepresented by a TWA employee to families of close TWA superiors. 

Pro, Con or any opinion adds to the source of what I have and those others.  Only Bill Liss and Gisa Kothe know for sure.  Yet... Bill Liss has not stepped forward to validate his source of these signed items.  He is a living witness to solve the dilemma I find myself.  Did Bill Liss present a "hoax" to Mr. Helmer a TWA executive whose daughter pleaded for some Beatles memorabilia.

On this Forum and this Post... only Bill Liss knows for sure.  The living Beatles were said to have signed items on the Flight.  Did they?  Or was Neil Aspinall busy scribbling away?

I note that the ink used on my Memo Sheet TWA letter and autographs is different than the ink color used for Ruth.  Both are mentioned within Bill Liss's letter.  Whomever signed Ruth's... signed MINE. Different ball points... but the signatures are very complimentary of the other.

Did Bill Liss pull off the biggest switch of his Beatles' meeting, acquiring a number of autographs... and KNOWING they are forged by the Beatle's manager... Neil Aspinall.

I rest my case.  It would not be the first nor last time that the "Rest of the Story" may never be known, unless the person that represents these as signed in his presence are by the Beatles themselves... or sitting next to Neil Aspinall and will die with this secret?

Maybe Ted Schaar might come across this Thread and add some "insight" into this discussion among his personal telephone calls with Bill Liss.

Permalink Reply by Jim Cushman on December 17, 2015 at 4:57pm

Don't like 'em...

Permalink Reply by SevenOut on December 17, 2015 at 6:14pm

Several important thoughts since starting this Thread.

1-  The Black & White photograph is a TWA promotional developed photo of the Beatles being interviewed in New York City.  This would not have been signed on Flight 703, but a part of the TWA Promotional Package directed towards those close to flight members.  I have a number of these, some taken on the flight which obviously were distributed later by TWA sources.

2-  The Parlophone "Help" green sleeve most likely was still newly released that August and signed with First Names by Neil Aspinall.  A post by Jim Cushman mentions a Mal Evans, which I hope he expands on his comments which are rather short.

Were Mal Evans or even Neil Aspinall on this Flight, or already either in New York City promoting and setting up the interviews to be held the day of the Beatles arrival?

Obviously, I have spent time lately trying to back track these items to their source, with few with any actual information.

Ted Schaar has no interest in the autographs, themselves. He has no interest if the signatures are authentic, or "Proxy Signatures".   Mr. Schaar wanted the story of Flight 703 and has no background in autographs, other than his own.  

It is well known that TWA had files in Kansas City, Missouri of the Beatles flight, the crew and possibly anything the TWA staff had to give, offer or participate. These files might still be in Kansas City, Missouri mildewing in a storage hanger.  

Among this group were other TWA photographs, with TWA hand stamps on their reverses of the New York City interviews as press releases for TWA employees and the International news.  Self promotion and international interest... a PR man's dream come true.

The Ruth signatures on the back of an envelope and the Helmer autographs on TWA memo stationary WERE signed on the TWA Flight 703.  The source was Bill Liss.  His letter to the Helmer's mentions Ruth's autographs.  If one or the other are deemed from a source other than the Beatles... both are forgeries.

What makes this a mystery are the sources who had access to the Beatles while in the USA.  

I eliminate the Parlophone sleeve with first names as a product of Neil Aspinal, if he was on the flight or Mal Evans as Jim Cushman offers as an option.  If neither were on Flight 703... then who could have signed these names?  Who else but the Beatles.

I will email Ted Schaar who started digging into TWA Flight 703 and ended up with three accounts.  One first hand and two as beneficiaries of Bill Liss, who was on this flight accompanying the Beatles.

This is a search for clues.  In 1965 who had the experience to "proxy signatures" with such detail?  Were any on this Flight?  Will Bill Liss restate his experience?

I will go through my older emails I have and glean any additional first hand "facts" to offer.  Possibly someone not on the Forum at the present HAS first hand knowledge to offer.  THEN we can all jump in and join the TWA Flight 703 Party!

Permalink Reply by SevenOut on December 17, 2015 at 6:31pm

March 17, 2015 (Ted Schaar communication)-  

A man whose Uncle was on Flight 703 received "copies" of the signed Parlophone sleeves and "Help" UK August 1965 45rpm record.  His Uncle's flight record noted for the Flight "scheduled passenger flight".  (Ted Schaar)

(Gissa, the stewardess, has the Parlophone sleeve and the Black & White photo from New York City.  I noted that the Black & White was listed at auction, earlier.  No other information about the Parlophone sleeve.)

March 18, 2015 (Ted Schaar communication from my Bill Liss letter mentioning Ruth's autographs being sent earlier in the week (?)...)

Ruth said it “made my day,” no reply from Gisa yet, and Bill's response included:  
"YES...i remember it (the letter) very well.  It was to BOB HELMER, who was the head of TWA Public Relations in Kansas City.  He was a good friend but died suddenly of a heart attack not long after I sent him the autographs and letter.  His wife was Helen.  I believe, if she is still alive, she lives in Kansas City.” 
 
April 27, 2014 (Ted Schaar communication)
 
-Before writing Bill Liss, Ray, I checked my e-mail file and Ruth’s story to see if he mentioned how he came by the autographs. 
This is from Ruth’s story:  "He explained he handed the envelope to 'the boys' as they settled into their seats. Unfortunately
I have lost this letter from Mr. Liss.”
Probably this is where the signatures on the “Memorandum” sheet in your trove came from, too.  Makes all kinds of sense. 
I’ll ask Bill if has any memory of the “Help” 45s and the B&W glossy autographs. 
Will let you know. 
Ted 
April 30, 2014 (Ted Schaar communication)
 
Still haven’t received a reply from Bill Liss about the Memorandum page.  He did respond to a question about the “Help” 45s: he did not witness band members signing them aboard the TWA jet.  Not that they didn’t; he just didn’t see it. 
Ted 

***********

I highly recommend anyone finding any of this... as interesting as I do... to read the well written interviews that Ted made concerning Flight 703.  He is currently working on other subjects, not involving the Beatles, but I do thank Ted for putting some "life" into the search.

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Permalink Reply by SevenOut on July 7, 2017 at 5:56pm

ted@schaaarcommunications.com

www.schaarcommunications.com/Beatles.Encounters.html

I had forgotten I had tossed the group of TWA 'Beatles Autographs' for everyone to examine.  One of the photographs on Ted Schaar has maybe Neil Aspinall (?) leaning over one of them.  Can anyone identify who it is?  This would help in solving if Neil Aspinall was actually on the flight.

The stewardess said the Beatles signed her Parlophone sleeve while she was on the plane.  Another mystery to solve.  The Ruth set of Autographs?  Another.  The woman who sold me her TWA group of autographs contacted Ted Schaar... with her recollection as a teenager.

Thank you all for making this an exciting adventure.  Only Bill Liss knows for sure... he is alive... and is not talking.  Makes one wonder if he feels a bit guilty, or is just interview bashful?

Permalink Reply by fab432 on July 8, 2017 at 1:16pm
I don't believe the signatures on the Parlophone sleeve are the work of Neil Aspinall. By this time Neil would be pretty good at signing for the Fabs and these look really tentative almost like someone was trying to copy a set of Neil's signatures. There is no flow, too calculated in my opinion. The b&w photo I have no opinion as I can't make out the signatures.
Permalink Reply by SevenOut on July 8, 2017 at 1:50pm

The website above had a picture that was taken by Jerry Hilton.  "possibly Neil Aspinall or Dereke Taylor"......

Anyone have any idea who might it be?  That could clean up some theories.

 http://www.schaarcommunications.com/ray.e.story.htm

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