Centralized Registry MemReg.com should Eliminate Fraud, Eventually

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin on March 24, 2011 at 4:44pm

What about allowing comments on each item? Still not perfect, but would help.

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 25, 2011 at 8:03am

We do allow comments on each item - you have two choice:

(1) Send a private message to the owner.

(2) Report "error or abuse" which will be attached to the item history and then will be available to the seller and purchaser when the item goes into the escrow.  (Or if the law enforcement requests them through legitimate court action.)

But, we have intentionally stayed away from having the discussion thread like this forum, since they have the potential of polluting the outcome.  So, the "blind auction" style was chosen to be the best solution.  We are taking the play book of procedures for purchasing a house.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin on March 25, 2011 at 10:15am

That's an interesting way of handling it. Does the buyer need to fund before seeing comments?

You're right about discussion threads. Only if those discussing the item really know what they're talking about will you generally get a clear cut determination of authenticity.

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 25, 2011 at 10:41am

Both seller and buyer need to agree and be in escrow before seeing the comments - that means the buyer has put the funds in escrow and the seller has agreed to take the item off the market (we call it ownership transfer pending). This is very similar to buying a house where real house inspection is not ordered until the house is in escrow.  At that point, both seller and buyer should be able to see all documentation (see under the hood) relating to the item and then make the informed decision as to go ahead with the sell/purchase or back out.  Not only this will protect potential buyer from a bad seller, but I believe this will also protect the seller from a bad buyer.

At the same time, since each item has been give a unique item number, anyone can also discuss the merits of these items at an open forum, such as this one.  I have always felt a little frustrated when people discuss fake (or genuine) items, they usually rely on the "description" of the item - but never can be sure whether you are really discussing about the SAME item.

So, transparency and openness - but with fairness and fact-driven would be the motto here...

BTW, once the buyer purchases the item and the ownership has been transferred, all provenance is kept in-tact.  And if the buyer (new owner) wishes to keep the item hidden from the public view (for what ever reason), then he can choose the mode to be "Private" and then it will not be shown in any list (except his own account).  And then if later, he wished to sell it or show it off again, then the whole history will still be preserved so he just need to change the viewing mode of the item. 

We also have the "Restricted" mode where if you wish to only show your items to your "Friends".  But our concept of friends is a little different - it is not a mutual friend - if I allow you to see my restricted item, that does not mean I am allowed to see your restricted items (until you also authorized me specifically).  I think this feature (once fully understood) will help dealers with exclusive offerings and/or help collectors who wish to share their items with only selected people.  But once again, the goal is to have all these activities without compromising the provenance of the items.

Permalink Reply by Robert Zarrillo on March 25, 2011 at 10:50am

I like that idea.  Frequently selling on eBay people have asked me for some other item which I can provide.   Adding it to your site restricted so only they will be able to buy it (or have first shot at it really) would be a solution to "off ebay" sales in a safe environment.   Not that I would use your site only for that - I think it has great value overall, but since I don't have a web site or e-commerce site of my own - I've been looking for an alternative.  Hopefully we will be able to talk more about your creation next week in Burbank.

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 28, 2011 at 2:59pm

@Robert,

I look forward to talking to you at the Show this Friday (April 1).

Permalink Reply by mike aring on March 28, 2011 at 8:42am

richard... i think i still think this has to be said... Forged items need to be completely pulled from the market. I dealt with a guy named Mark Jordan for years and he told me that a guy tried to sell him fake autographs and he sent them back to the guy cut in half (mark now helps run a sports memorabilia auction house.). this is the way fake autographs should be treated... tossed in the trash. not celebrated in any way. and there's no way that someone who wants to be legit, should be allowing anyone to post and potentially sell a bogus autograph either. I don't care if it's in some KNOWN database, there's no sense in even showing this item off... it should disappear completely.

m 

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 28, 2011 at 10:26am

@ Mike,

Yes, I do agree that the forged items should be completely pulled from the market - and you should cut the physical item in half (or shred it) so that it will never be attempted to be sold again.

However, I believe the "information" should not be destroyed - since it will serve as valuable exemplars in both prosecuting the criminals as well as to prevent future fraud.  By registering the fakes, we are not "celebrating nor showing-off" these fakes.  Rather, we are documenting the evidence.  If you just throw away the bad items, then other people may not know about them.  My study shows that many forgers also have their own unique way of signing - in fact, they are actually "autographing" their attempted fake signatures. Just destroying one bad item (or even many items) in the trash does not necessarily help, since most forgers can create many more items  very quickly to replace destroyed ones.

So, in my opinion, only way to make the forgery disappear from the market (eventually) is to actually document all known forgeries in one location.  Plus, not only document the bad items, but also document all bad transactions associated with those items (meaning, who created them, who sold them, who authenticated them and who purchased them).  It is much harder to generate unique provenance for multiple fake items and pass the test of public scrutiny.

I hope you will be able to participate in the system to make the whole process work.  Your continued input will be much appreciated.

Permalink Reply by mike aring on March 28, 2011 at 1:00pm

ok... so have like three different categories... 1) Known fakes for sale on the market... and put in there the stuff that's been seen as fakes.. 2) Known authentic items (obvious) and 3) a "Not Sure" category that people can use to discuss the merits and problems with these other items.  what do you think of that???

and, we would have to get a hold of the dealer and tell them that their item is a 1) known fake or 2) "not sure" and inform them that their item can not be sold on this site at this time. and the not sure, they can try to provide reasonable provenance to prove that their item is legit and tell them that it is still being talked about (and in the case of items that are always iffy, you can hold up them selling an item forever if that be the case)... and, if a dealer consistantly has items that are known fakes, secretarial TTM's and are always iffy, then you can pull the dealer out completely, but his items would still be in teh data bank. you could even have a 4th category, "suspicious sellers." and it just be the people who consistantly are trying to put more bad stuff on the market!

again, i'm really just voicing my concern over the selling of an item that is completely not real and then expecting any kind of legitimacy over your site... i love the idea as a whole, but the parts need to be broken down.

and i am hoping that i'm not discouraging you in your endeavor, and i'll help when i can and if need be. I LOVE THIS HOBBY and started my collecting with my dad who we still share the old spring training stories and still pop out the old autographed card book that we got together.  and i HATE that the industry has become so horrible... maybe it was bad when i got into it and i was just naive... maybe i've gotten cynical over time or maybe i just hate that there are actually very bad dealers with somehow, very good reputations... preying on the innocent and casual collector for personal gain, where as i worked very hard, got difficult information and have been STIFFED by many a celebrity, just to see these guys have everything and everyone under the sun..even the extremely difficult, in large amounts!!!

Permalink Reply by Anthony Bautista on March 28, 2011 at 1:59pm

No matter what though . There are still a ton of flaws and bottom line in the end some one is proffiting off it . If it was a free data base then I could see .

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 28, 2011 at 2:40pm

We have many different ways to categorize the items.  In addition, we can have multiple signatures per item (with each signature having its own provenance).  Then each signature's authenticity is categorized as:

Authentic (In-Person)

Authentic (Certified/COA)

Authentic (Definitely)

Authentic (Probably)

AutoPen (Definitely)

AutoPen (Probably)

Forgery (Definitely)

Forgery (Probably)

Pre-Print (Definitely)

Pre-Print (Probably)

Secretarial (Definitely)

Secretarial (Probably)

Stamp (Definitely)

Stamp (Probably)

Unknown

We also categorize each item's received method:

In Person

Through the Mail

Purchase

Pulled from Pack

Trade/Gift

Other

Unknown

Also, I am not "selling" on my site - it is an "escrow" process.  So, we hold the money form the buyer and the title from the seller as a mutual third-party, and then present both parties with all the available evidence & allow enough time for the item to be sent, examined, authenticated, etc. and then when both parties agree to go ahead with the sell/purchase, then the transaction will be completed.   We don't have to "label someone as suspicious".  We just need to record all legitimate transactions and then present the evidence to both the seller and buyer so that they can make the informed decision as to buy/sell.

Since no other "system" currently seems to be working, please try this new system.  I also love this hobby and also would love to see all your items (with the story behind how you got them) to be registered so that everyone can enjoy them - but more importantly, your item will build provenance and can be used as exemplars for other collectors.

As I told Jay Burstein (see the first page of this discussion thread), please help by doing the following: (1) Register your in-person items, (2) Register known fakes and (3) Register your comments on the other people's items.

Thanks!

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin on March 28, 2011 at 1:57pm

Richard,

All you can do is try what you want to do and see if it works. Anything you can do to keep as many people as possible from ending up with fakes--more power to you. Your efforts are applauded and appreciated.

Thank you!

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