Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike T on October 15, 2013 at 12:23pm

As a music collector I agree, look at ebay seller "presspasscollectibles".  They have a continuous stream of forged music items all with full letters from psa or jsa.

However, to say they are destroying the hobby couldn't be further from the truth.  Jealous forgers who have a vendetta against third party authentication claim this all day long.  Its absurd.  They do far more to clean up the hobby then they do to "destroy" it.

Posts like this are rarely constructive and only make our hobby look like a bunch of egomaniacs setting each other up and pointing fingers when mistakes are made.  I'm all for making this hobby a better place, but this is not the place to start.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on October 15, 2013 at 12:37pm

I never used the word "destroying."  I said "damage," and that's a fair term to use for when bad items are carelessly given a certificate proclaiming they are real - regardless of who's doing it.  This is especially true when a wide range of collectors view this certification as gospel.

The point of these TPA's is that you trust the autograph's authenticity based on the certification.  I certainly would not buy an autograph based on PSA or JSA certification alone, and I would not recommend that anyone judge authenticity or make a purchase based only on either sticker.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on October 15, 2013 at 12:50pm

I know  a lot of people fall under the "if I didn't see it signed, I can't be 100% sure it's real" category.  They simply collect based on the value of the items, and fact is items with a PSA or JSA cert are more valuable than items without, regardless of their authenticity.  This is because people are willing to buy items simply because of the cert and the circle continues.

No expert is going to be correct 100% of the time, you are paying for an opinion of a company who is correct most of the time, not all.  There is no foolproof method to authenticating autographs.  I don't understand why people expect them to always be correct.  It doesn't make mathematical sense.

Permalink Reply by Rich on October 15, 2013 at 1:06pm

Absolutely true.  But if I thought their accuracy was anywhere near 100% (or even 85 - 90%), I'd be less critical.  If I thought their bad authentications were a product of pure error, I'd probably be a bit more forgiving.  Obviously I can't make any real objective judgement about how they're doing overall, but I've seen enough to indicate that there are bad practices and bad authentications aplenty.

I just don't agree with any thoughts that PSA or JSA should be "hands off" when it comes to criticizing this hobby.   After all, who's really holding them accountable?  When they screw up an authentication, do they have to issue a refund for the money that the collector who has been burned has lost?  Do they even refund authentication fees when they blow it?  Other than forums like this, how are they called out on the floor at all? 

Permalink Reply by Mike T on October 15, 2013 at 1:20pm

PSA alone has certified 21.5 million items.  With only an 80% success rate (rounded down per your claim) that means there are 4.3 million items with PSA certs out there that aren't genuine.  Then why is everyone surprised when they find a mistake? 

The whole idea of TPA is that you aren't sure about an autograph, so you ask for an opinion.  You are only paying for an opinion, why should they refund money if they are wrong?  People trust their opinion and that is why it is valuable.  If no one trusted it, they wouldn't have a business model.

Permalink Reply by Null on October 15, 2013 at 1:48pm

The irony here, is that people have differing opinions about a company's opinions. LOL.

Permalink Reply by Null on October 15, 2013 at 12:45pm

Mike, posts like this are highly beneficial to the hobby in my opinion. It shows that even the "top dogs" can still be wrong, and that you need to do your own research. You should never blindly trust something because it has a particular sticker on it.

Forgeries should be exposed regardless of what sticker is on it, that is how we learn. 

Also, PSA/DNA and JSA aren't in this industry to "clean up the hobby", they're in this to make profit for their business. And when money is involved, anything is possible.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on October 15, 2013 at 1:04pm

Ryan, see my post above, my point is simply that people should not expect PSA or JSA or any other autograph company to be correct all the time.  PSA authenticating 1 forgery for every 1000 they deny should not be a surprising statistic, nor should it be the basis of absurd claims like OP made.

If you stack up all the Babe Ruth forgeries that didn't make their way into auctions this year because of PSA and JSA's work, effectively saving collectors hundreds of thousands of dollars - I can live with a mistake on a Hulk Hogan autograph.  There is no need to bash a company and confuse new collectors looking to get a start in this hobby by claiming "they will authenticate anything as long as they are getting paid".  It just simply isn't true.

Permalink Reply by Null on October 15, 2013 at 1:14pm

"No expert is going to be correct 100% of the time, you are paying for an opinion of a company who is correct most of the time, not all."

Mike I agree with this statement 10000%, but the problem is naive buyers see that they are "eBay approved" or one of the best 3rd party authenticators and they assume they are right 100% (which is ridiculous to even expect, I know.)

This is why posts like these are constructive IMO, if someone cares enough to do a Google Search they will see that no one is perfect, thus making them be a little more careful next time.

I don't look at these as "bashings", I look at it merely as a reality check that no one is perfect, and you need to do your research. 

With the Babe Ruth forgeries, I'm sure those will get some other "piece of paper" COA and sold off at a different auction so it doesn't even matter. What about the person who's hero is Hulk Hogan, who doesn't even know who Babe Ruth is, why should they be screwed?

Anytime you are dealing with opinions and money you are setting yourself up for trouble. 

Permalink Reply by Mike T on October 15, 2013 at 1:36pm

I think it makes a big difference!  A Babe Ruth autograph that sells for $20k with a PSA cert is vastly different than one that sells for $400 with a free Lou Gehrig bonus autograph at Coaches Corner.  No collector should buy anything based solely on the certification.  And based on the numbers I posted above, I don't see why it's a surprise to find a mistake they have made.

All I am saying is that it is not right to claim that PSA will authenticate anything just because they are being paid, which was the original claim in this thread and what I spoke out against.

Permalink Reply by Mike P on October 15, 2013 at 9:32pm

I sent in an Al Pacino and several soccer autographs, all came back unable to render opinion after a 2 month wait (argued with them and said not only you made me wait 2 months but you said you could authenticate these guys on your website and  how can you not even give me an opinion after all the wait?) and I eventually got refunded.  First and last time ever using a 3rd party grader.  From now on, my eye and several opinions from here is enough for me.

While they do a good service for a bunch of autographs, they shouldn't say the will authenticate certain actors/actresses/athletes etc. and not be able to render an opinion.  It's either yes or no, otherwise you don't know the signature; when they aren't able to give an opinion, it should be an immediate refund or take the name off the website.  No credit bs that they tried to pull with me.   

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Permalink Reply by Chad B on October 15, 2013 at 12:32pm

Dang, Mike. You feel strongly about this topic. This is an autograph site and the authenticators are a big part of the hobby. I think the topic (s) regarding their mistakes are educational and worthwhile. PSA can add value to items but collectors need to still be careful and understand as fully as possible the opinion they are paying for.

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