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Purchased "Authentic" autographed by The Rolling Stones that PSA/DNA discredited

A few months back I picked up an encased guitar signed by The Rolling Stones at a store called Antiquities International in the Forum shops at Caesars Palace for roughly $2500. I have to admit that I have no experience when it comes to autographs but because the store was located in a major hotel among some of the finest stores (Prada, Coach, Tiffanys, etc.) and that I researched the store's reputation on the web, I wrongly assumed I was dealing with a reputable dealer. After the purchase they shipped it to me and I proudly hung it in my den and enjoyed seeing it whenever I entered the room.
A couple of weeks ago I was on the web again and came across an article that caused some concern about the guitars that are sold as authentic often aren't, regardless of where they're purchased so I decided to seek out someone or a service that can verify the signatures authenticity. I learned that a company PSA/DNA would be in the Chicago area on May 22nd (yesterday) and that their stamp of approval would remove any doubt about the autographs. I paid $200 to the store owner where PSA/DNA was working that day, gave him the guitar and waited patiently for about thirty minutes for the outcome. Upon his return he gave me the guitar and, to my disappointment informed me that it didn't pass scrutiny. With that he sent me on my way with a promise I would receive documentation in the mail to that effect. When I reached my car I immediately called Antiquities International where I bought the guitar and the person went on to tell me that PSA/DNA aren't the last word when it came to forensic analysis and that I would need to find someone with credentials that would hold up in court to credit or discredit the authenticity of the autographs. I learned later in the day that I might have a chance for a refund because I used an American Express card to buy it but I'll need the documentation first. I can't even put into words how disappointed I am with this issue. I invite any comments, suggestions, expertise, or guidance in this matter but I have little hope that it will end well. That said, I still would like to purchase the real thing and in addition to your comments ask where I might find one that is above reproach as far as its authenticity. I thank you all in advance for taking the time to read this and hope for the best.
Sincerely, Joe

Tags: Antiquities, Rolling, Stones, guitar, international

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Permalink Reply by Mark Saurin on May 24, 2015 at 10:28am

My friend, blame cannot be attached to trust, when buying this item, you trusted the word of the salesman, and the WORTHLESS C.O.A however, through your misfortune, you have discovered a useful tool as this website, believe me, this has been very rewarding to myself in the years I have been a member of AML.

DO NOY BEAT YOURSELF UP, WELCOME TO Autograph Magazine Live, GREAT TIMES AHEAD

Permalink Reply by Joe Santori on May 24, 2015 at 12:42pm

Thanks again Mark.  It's good to know I'm not alone and I'm looking forward to being part of this community.  Best wishes and i hope this finds you well.

      Sincerely,  Joe

Permalink Reply by Ian Baldock on May 24, 2015 at 2:04pm

And welcome Joe. Ive also been to Vegas 4 times and walked through some of these autograph stores. The one at the entrance to Mandalay bay has Pete Rose signing a lot right in their front entrance but I didn't like some of their stuff for sale. Many of these places are what we call "mixed bag" some good some bad. from what I see though mostly bad. Good luck and feel free to ask, post here for help.

Permalink Reply by Scott Paul on May 24, 2015 at 2:17pm

We have all made mistakes (some costly) but the knowledge you learn from them is useful too.  I personally disregard most COAs and LOAs, and sometimes am extra cautious when they are from unreliable TPAs.   There are certain dealers I trust and if I like an autograph they have I feel comfortable in buying it.  There are a lot of good people on here willing to give opinions based on years of experience.   I am sorry you had this happen and hope perhaps you can file some sort of claim through your credit card.

Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on May 24, 2015 at 6:20am

Joe,

 PSA DNA's failure of the item, may not hold up in court,,,,but it may be enough documentation for American Express. I would file your chargeback claim as soon as you receive the paperwork from PSA. If Amex requires more documentation from there, then worry about that, but get the process started as soon as you can.

Good Luck,

Pete  

Permalink Reply by Mike T on May 24, 2015 at 7:44am
What's all this about PSA not holding up in court? What kind of court are we talking about? A PSA letter would go a long way in court, they are easily established as the top authentication company in the hobby both by volume and trust of major companies. Also, Steve Grad (and others) would definitely qualify as an expert witness, you don't have to have a silly forensic certification to be considered an expert in court. Where are people getting this from?

Now if Antiquities has a policy that states they don't accept PSA as a basis for returns, then that's another battle, but outright there is no truth to the statement that PSA won't hold up in court
Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on May 24, 2015 at 8:21am

PSA/DNA's COAs, LOAs and rejection letters are not admissible as expert witness testimony on their own. Their expert, or one of their experts if more than one examined the item in question, would need to be available to appear in court to be cross-examined. That is, unless the opposing side doesn't contest the opinion in PSA/DNA's documentation.

This is no different than documentation from a so-called "court-approved" forensic document examiner. The FDE would have to appear to testify unless their printed opinion wasn't contested.

Permalink Reply by Mike T on May 24, 2015 at 8:30am
Right, the piece of paper isn't a witness but the company or individuals in the company can be. That's why I don't understand the argument that PSA isn't admissible and FDEs are.. It's not true. PSA could provide an expert to testify and it would certainly be admissible.
Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on May 24, 2015 at 8:50am

The costs involved in bringing any expert witness into a courtroom would not fit this $2500 claim.....It would be silly to even consider this, but American Express will likely side with the customer with minimal evidence. The PSA DNA letter should be fine to start the process of the chargeback.  

Permalink Reply by Mike T on May 24, 2015 at 9:19am

Yes, i agree.. im merely stating that saying PSA is not admissible in court is not factual.  If PSA wanted to, they could supply an expert to testify.  In fact, if they do it enough times they could even become the defacto standard.

Permalink Reply by Joe Santori on May 24, 2015 at 12:47pm

Thanks Pete.  I plan to do exactly that.  I've read through AMEX's stipulations regarding refunds and disputes and it appears to be a fairly simple process given I can provide the appropriate documentation.  In the meantime they will put a hold on the transaction or charge-back until the matter has been settled.

    Thanks again,  Joe

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on May 24, 2015 at 9:23am

Someone else trying to get a refund from Antiquities said that Toby Stoffa told him that under the terms of their guarantee, their authenticator, Drew Max, would appear in court and testify that the autograph(s) were genuine.

In other words, they guarantee he'll testify against their customers who claim they were sold forgeries.

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