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Authenticity is Everything
Purchased "Authentic" autographed by The Rolling Stones that PSA/DNA discredited
A couple of weeks ago I was on the web again and came across an article that caused some concern about the guitars that are sold as authentic often aren't, regardless of where they're purchased so I decided to seek out someone or a service that can verify the signatures authenticity. I learned that a company PSA/DNA would be in the Chicago area on May 22nd (yesterday) and that their stamp of approval would remove any doubt about the autographs. I paid $200 to the store owner where PSA/DNA was working that day, gave him the guitar and waited patiently for about thirty minutes for the outcome. Upon his return he gave me the guitar and, to my disappointment informed me that it didn't pass scrutiny. With that he sent me on my way with a promise I would receive documentation in the mail to that effect. When I reached my car I immediately called Antiquities International where I bought the guitar and the person went on to tell me that PSA/DNA aren't the last word when it came to forensic analysis and that I would need to find someone with credentials that would hold up in court to credit or discredit the authenticity of the autographs. I learned later in the day that I might have a chance for a refund because I used an American Express card to buy it but I'll need the documentation first. I can't even put into words how disappointed I am with this issue. I invite any comments, suggestions, expertise, or guidance in this matter but I have little hope that it will end well. That said, I still would like to purchase the real thing and in addition to your comments ask where I might find one that is above reproach as far as its authenticity. I thank you all in advance for taking the time to read this and hope for the best.
Sincerely, Joe
Tags: Antiquities, Rolling, Stones, guitar, international
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike T on
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That's a nice little guarantee.. accept our stuff as genuine or we'll fight you in court over it.
If someone really wanted to they could annihilate Max in court, there is so much out there against him it's comical. But alas, it is probably not worth the resources to make it happen. If someone does one day be sure to do it in a state where we can get a video of it.
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Permalink Reply by James on
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Wow. I'm flabbergasted. So they'll get a known (to the hobby at least) authenticator of forgeries to testify for them. Unreal. I think you can call that Max sleaze!
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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Joe, I hope this negative turns out positive in the long run for you. Lucky the crew are giving you some great advice.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Santori on
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Thanks for replying James and Mr. Max will have his work cut out for him if I have my way. I have the time and resources to pursue this matter regardless that it will almost certainly cost me more than the guitar is worth. I plan to make Antiquities International's business model as well known as possible and my new hobby. In the meantime I'm getting a lot of great information from this community and I want to thank everyone that's taken the time to reply to my post.
Sincerely, Joe
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Permalink Reply by Sidney Fields on
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Steve...what's interesting here is that the COA comes from Ms. Stofa.
Not long ago...weren't their COA's directly from AAU/Drew Max? It seems Antiquities is seeking to put a little distance between the company and Drew Max. No surprise, especially in light of the attention he's received recently.
http://pix11.com/2014/11/20/nj-prosecutor-used-false-document-to-se...
In any case, it would be doubtful that the company would really want Drew Max to be in court and subject to cross-examination, particularly in regard to his status as a diplomate of the American Board of Forensic Examiners.
http://pix11.com/2014/11/21/nj-prosecutors-memorabilia-defense-just...
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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on
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Drew Max testify in court...
Never happen.
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Hi Joe - very sorry to read of your experience. Mine as a new collector was similar, but rather than purchase one somewhat expensive item, I purchased several less expensive. All were bad. I have two recommendations that I hope will be helpful: 1) Don't buy anything without a valid COA/LOA unless Roger Epperson has looked at it, 2) Try, to the extent you have time, to familiarize yourself with the signatures of those you have an interest in. Doing so may not, for quite a long time (I'm still not there yet), give you the confidence to purchase an uncertified item, but you may pretty quickly be able to spot a forgery. I've added the only item I own that has correct, authentic Stones signatures. I hope you find this helpful, and very best of luck.
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Thanks Christopher. Since you and a few others mentioned his name, Roger Epperson, I've done some basic research about him as well as it seems he is having problems with his reputation as well. Unless I'm mistaken he's on the downside of a fairly heavy class action lawsuit. It's unfortunate and current. After reading some public court files and petitions against him it has caused me to question his expertise. Again I thank you for your input and sharing a great piece.
Sincerely, Joe
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Hi Joe - I started using Roger's quick opinion and full certification services prior to the Johnson / RR Auction issue. I've read all the publicly available information and am as confident in Roger's expertise now as before. Perhaps others will comment specifically on the lawsuit. What I believe you may rely upon is that if Roger says it's bad, it's bad. If Roger says it's good, then with very little margin of error, it's good. I allow for a small margin of error because we're all human and the art of forgery seems to have become pretty sophisticated. In my personal experience and probably the experience of others here, a mistake on a music item is more likely to occur with PSA than with Roger. Among collectors, a Roger LOA is widely accepted. But I do understand your apprehension; the inflammatory nature of the publicity campaign against RR, Roger and others seems credible at a glance. But there's a fair amount more to it. I think discussion of the matter exists here somewhere.
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Hi, Joe. I'm sure at this point you're really wondering whom you can trust. The thing is there is no infallible third-party authenticator (TPA). They're all human, and they all make mistakes from time-to-time. What I've learned since joining this site about 15 months ago is that Roger Epperson is one of the good guys who would never purposely authenticate a forgery. Unfortunately, there are very good forgers out there. So errors, sometimes costly, will be made. But I think Roger is still very highly-regarded in the hobby. Back in November 2014, I started a discussion about the good works that Steve Cyrkin and Roger Epperson did to help a charity fundraiser uncover several fakes. If you have the time, please read this small post. In it, there is a link to an article from a news station that talks about the good that Steve and Roger did for the charity. Here's a link to the discussion:
http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/good-job-steve-cyrki...
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And here is a direct link to the Cincinnati news station article:
http://www.fox19.com/story/24831988/experts-say-the-fake-memorabili...
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the ones on ebay that are listed for 12500 from autographs99 I believe are authentic I bet if you contacted him and bought directly from him or worked something out he would sell it in a closer to market value price range.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLLING-STONES-SIGNED-GUITAR-BY-ALL-4-EXACT...
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