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Authenticity is Everything
Purchased "Authentic" autographed by The Rolling Stones that PSA/DNA discredited
A couple of weeks ago I was on the web again and came across an article that caused some concern about the guitars that are sold as authentic often aren't, regardless of where they're purchased so I decided to seek out someone or a service that can verify the signatures authenticity. I learned that a company PSA/DNA would be in the Chicago area on May 22nd (yesterday) and that their stamp of approval would remove any doubt about the autographs. I paid $200 to the store owner where PSA/DNA was working that day, gave him the guitar and waited patiently for about thirty minutes for the outcome. Upon his return he gave me the guitar and, to my disappointment informed me that it didn't pass scrutiny. With that he sent me on my way with a promise I would receive documentation in the mail to that effect. When I reached my car I immediately called Antiquities International where I bought the guitar and the person went on to tell me that PSA/DNA aren't the last word when it came to forensic analysis and that I would need to find someone with credentials that would hold up in court to credit or discredit the authenticity of the autographs. I learned later in the day that I might have a chance for a refund because I used an American Express card to buy it but I'll need the documentation first. I can't even put into words how disappointed I am with this issue. I invite any comments, suggestions, expertise, or guidance in this matter but I have little hope that it will end well. That said, I still would like to purchase the real thing and in addition to your comments ask where I might find one that is above reproach as far as its authenticity. I thank you all in advance for taking the time to read this and hope for the best.
Sincerely, Joe
Tags: Antiquities, Rolling, Stones, guitar, international
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joe Santori on
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My best shot is with my credit card company, American Express. I just need the proper documentation and submit a dispute. I don't know how that will shake out but AMEX is really good about customer dissatisfaction and it's very easy for them to "pull" the $2500 back if they have the proper documentation.
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Permalink Reply by James on
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Hi, Joe. Sorry about what happened. While Antiquities may be right that PSA/DNA is not the last word necessarily in authentication, my question is, who is? They aren't from the standpoint that they're like a judge in a court of law. No, of course not. But Antiquities is just trying to unsettle your resolve, so that they don't have to refund the money. However, rightly or wrongly, PSA's opinion still holds more weight in the hobby than any other authenticator. Yet, they do make mistakes, and I criticize them plenty. But they also are much more often right than wrong. Even reputable sellers on eBay will sometimes say they will refund your money if their item doesn't pass PSA or JSA.
In this instance, my guess is that Antiquities is more the culprit than PSA. In locating an authentic Stones set, your best bet is still probably something certified by Roger Epperson or PSA/DNA. Would you have wanted PSA/DNA to have passed the autographs for you even though in reality they thought they were not genuine? They could have done that, and left you happy for years to stare at your secretly non-authentic Stones guitar hanging on the wall.
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Anyway, Joe, from one Paisan to another, I truly hope you get your money back. It's not right if you don't. And if Antiquities was a reputable outfit at all, they would give you your money back based on PSA's opinion, because even if they do, you're still out $200.
But just to give you an idea of the weight that PSA's opinion carries in the hobby, here is a little tidbit. I just recently paid $500 for what I know is a 100% authentic JFK signed 6x9 handbill. It has no COA with it, but I know JFK pretty well, plus the previous owner got it from Leland's auction house 14 years ago. I got a great deal on it. Now, just recently on eBay, a tiny JFK cut, measuring probably 2x2 that was encapsulated by PSA/DNA, sold for $2000! It was an ugly piece of pretty poor quality, but someone was willing to pay $2000 I think because it came certified by PSA. The authentic piece I got is much larger and much more eye-appealing, and I got it for 75% less because many people won't touch a piece if it's not certified by PSA. It may be ridiculous, but it's the truth. Now if I ever want to sell it, I'll probably have to pay PSA $150 to get an LOA from them, and then I'd probably be able to get close to $2000, I think.
Anyway, a COA from Antiquities carries no weight in the hobby, while a COA from PSA does.
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James,
Funny to me is how you ended this reply because I was thinking almost the exact same thing. Or better yet (or worse depending on how you see it) they could've mistakenly passed it and I'd have this block of wood hanging on my wall. To me the thrill of having the autograph is knowing that at some point in time a person who I admire actually held a pen, actually came in contact with the article and for the briefest moment focused on signing it. It's a very personal and enjoyable experience for me to have that small part of something that I'm passionate about. I understand that in many cases there is money to be made over time but that has never been my goal. It's always about the person and for the past couple of months this guitar brought me so much joy that I almost didn't want to have it authenticated fearing the worst. In the end though, you need to know it's real to fully appreciate it. Now I know and although disappointed I have found an upside in that I am learning more and more and getting closer to my end goal of finding the genuine article. I can't thank you and everyone else who has taken the time to offer their time, experiences, expertise, opinions and guidance.
Ciao, Joe
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Good luck, Joe. I hope you get justice out of this. And you're right in that PSA does make mistakes. So it's definitely not just about the sticker. You might get a reputable LOA, but you still have to rely on your own eyes as well as the trusted eyes of others.
But I have no doubt that you'll eventually get that awesome piece that you're looking for.
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Permalink Reply by Xwiesy on
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I will repay authentication fees to anyone if this passes either Roger Epperson or PSA.
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Permalink Reply by AJ Jones on
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I would'nt want to purchase anything that could'nt pass a PSA/DNA inspection anyway unless i witnessed it being signed myself. PSA/DNA may not be able to hit the nail on the head 100% of the time, but they are a very excellent gauging tool, thats why they are leading authentication company in this hobby. If an item can't pass PSA/DNA and I did'nt witness it being signed, 9x's out of 10, the value won't be there, the item will be clouded with doubt, and will be a hard resell. I have used them many times and havent had a issue yet.
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Permalink Reply by Mike T on
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I agree with this. Far too many people don't think of it as a value based decision. If PSA passes it, it increases in value, no question. If they fail it, it decreases. It doesn't matter if the item is truly authentic or not all the time, sometimes it's just simple economics.
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Thanks AJ and Mike T. I have no one to blame but myself on this one. Had I taken the time to dig a little deeper than I did perhaps none of this would've come to pass. That said, the more I read the more I find that PSA/DNA isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Although it would've been better to have had them give me the thumbs up I've read that time and again that they have a history of missteps. I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that my guitar was a no brainer for them as it didn't take long for them to discredit it's authenticity and I can't think of any logical reason for them to tell me anything but their professional opinion.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Joe,
A genuine Rolling Stones signed guitar would typically sell for in the $7,500 range or more. Antiquities is well-known among those experienced in autographs as sellers of forgeries. Go into their store and you'll find Led Zeppelin albums signed by the entire band, including John Bonham, for $4,000 or less. Real ones generally bring $10,000-$19,000. Why would they sell theirs so cheap if they're real?
Why would they sell you a Rolling Stones guitar for $2,500 when they could sell it for 3-times that?
Letters of Authentication by the forensic examiners they talk about are considered signs of forgery, not authenticity. I'll be happy to talk to American Express and help you in any way.
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Steve, your reply makes a lot of sense. My mistake was not knowing the market, not doing enough research and allowing several outside factors affect my decision. The placement of the store in addition to what I read about their reputation the night before I made the purchase. I JUST DIDN'T DIG DEEP ENOUGH. Had I done that perhaps I wouldn't have gotten sucked in as I did. The upside of all this is that, as I said before, it was a relatively cheap lesson and one that I will not forget...ever. I appreciate your offer to speak with AMEX but I'm pretty sure I'll need the documentation before I can even begin to dispute the purchase. What interests me more about what you wrote is that an authentic guitar can be had and as community manager I'm guessing you have ample knowledge of where I should be looking for one. I would greatly appreciate any guidance on that front. $7500-$10,000 doesn't sound unreasonable given what you've told me along with all the other comments plus what I've read to date. If you have the inclination and time I would really like to hear what you have to say about that. Thanks again for taking the time to address this issue and for sharing your expertise.
Joe
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Joe,
I like your attitude. I don't know where you can find a band signed Rolling Stones guitar right now. They are hard to come by, but several a year do appear. Roger Epperson had one a couple years ago, but it's probably long gone. You'll be able to find one, though, with some patience and diligence. and members here can help you make sure that it's likely genuine before you send it in for authentication.
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