Authenticity is Everything
Billie Holiday Autograph
I purchased this 78 vinyl record purportedly signed by Billie Holiday from an RACC trusted seller. I recently submitted the item to JSA for authentication, and unfortunately it did not pass.
I originally submitted it in person at a show here in CA a few weeks ago, and I was disappointed by how carelessly the item was handled during intake. When I received it back, there were fingerprints all over it. I contacted JSA immediately to report the condition, and they did expedite the review process.
Yesterday I received their letter confirming that the autograph did not pass authentication. I’m extremely disappointed and unsure what my next step should be, or if anyone here might be able to offer advice.
Prior to purchasing the item, I did my research and examined the signature characteristics—such as the looping of “Billie” and the shape of the “H” in “Holiday.” However, upon further inspection, the signature appears to have been written in ballpoint pen. Additionally, the Blue Ace label is known to be a bootleg label, and this particular pressing seems to have been released slightly before the time of her passing.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Dominick Lisi
-
Eric,
Given that the VeriMarx report seems to validate your views on the subject, I’m quite perplexed by your comment. Could you provide your expert opinion as to why you would invalidate an application you haven’t used, as well as your own summary in the process? Seems a bit odd.
-
Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo
-
The last one I read was very generic, contradictory, and incorrect re the historical record. This is also self contradictory. The "B" and "H" are typical, consistent with her authentic signature, then a few lines down they both are atypical in proportion with odd loop geometry. Then it says the construction of the "H" provides strong indicators of authenticity. It missed the pen lift - then says it is natural? There is hesitation/uncertainty in the paraph after the pub lift.
-
-
It is just not for me. I don't use any TPG's either. I prefer observation, experience and a very few folks here.
Again, I am no expert. Just a cautious collector with experience. I started this collecting in 1978 with my first Gleason (a Saddleman of course). I remember it was $5.
-
-
-
Perhaps you should try the application before offering your expert opinion. We have had so many individuals from this site reach out to us and offer real, valid, helpful, and constructive assistance. We truly appreciate their help, and expertise. Without having you actually use VeriMarx, it’s difficult to validate your experience.
Also, the reports are meant to be taken in their entirety , and offer a great deal of information beyond .. good / bad. Without utilizing the program, and reading the reports in conjunction with the action…. Doesn’t offer much in the way of feedback, validity, or…quite frankly…help.
-
-
I have no idea what Verimarx is - it sounds like AI - but anyway, your post reads like spam and this is not the place for pitches.
If you have info to help the OP all well and good but enough already.
-
-
-
"The signature displays a high degree of spontaneity and rhythmic natural fluidity. which are primary indicators of natural rapid writing..." .."
"I observed no evidence of...unnatural pen lifts..."
"Stroke patterns suggest a lack of natural fluidity and speed..."
"The signature displays highly consistent letter formations and structural proportions that align strongly with the known handwriting of Billie Holiday."
One could go on....
-
-
-
"Perhaps you should try the application before offering your expert opinion."
This comment by Dominick Lisi is the final nail in the coffin for VeriMarx as far as I am concerned.
The AI application has a disclaimer that it does not authenticate autographs but you state that no one should authenticate an autograph without consulting VeriMarx first. What self-serving arrogance!
AI will never give a more expert opinion than an actual expert.
Mark my words right now that this AI application will ultimately be a failure. You can't have a disclaimer that it is not to be relied upon for providing authentication while at the same time insisting that people should use it before providing an expert opinion.
AI does have some real usefulness in this field, but not the way you are using it. And no, I won't provide free design recommendations to help make it a success, especially after the comments above.
-
-
-
Sorry - "pen lift"...
+1 to Findbooks.
-
-
Very strange.. In any case, yes..the report was an effort to provide help regarding the Billie Holiday autograph, and to provide information and additional insight. Eric.. my thoughts regarding your input..still stands. This should be a forum that helps grow understanding and knowledge. Whether it helps build an AI model is irrelevant… One should find that to be helpful in the long run. Finbooks…
-
-
Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
-
Hi Ryan,
I didn't read more than the OP right after you posted. I just checked the autograph carefully after you messaged me, and replying here.
I am not an expert on Billie, but I have a soft spot for her. I recommend Roger Epperson, and Bill White of RRAuction.com. RR has sold more Billie than any dealer or auction house that I know of, they're highly reliable, and Bill is their chief authenticator.
I looked at your exemplars and some RR sold lots, and based on the photo I think it is real. I don't see any characteristics that do not look like Billie's hand. But I am not an expert in her.
"Some Other Spring" is way up there on the list of top Billie songs, though. $900 was REALLY cheap. $5,000 would be low for it at the right auction or dealer. I wouldn't be shocked to see it bring twice that.
I'd be surprised if an RACC dealer knowingly sold a forgery, since they'd likely be booted.
Gabriel Boyers at Shubertaide Music is a good person to ask. He used to consult for JSA, but I don't know if he saw this.
Bill Ecker at Harmonie Autographs is also a great choice.
I think you should get it thoroughly checked out before you return it.
Speaking of returns, why didn't you just file for a return through eBay? It failed JSA. That should be enough, even if JSA was wrong.
-
-
I no longer have Bill White's email but the contact for consignment inquiries w Bob Eaton should help you where you want.
-
-
Ryan,
I recommend always using eBay's or PayPal's buyer protection if you're going to return something. They're easier, quicker, in their terms of service, and damned good.
If they won't communicate with eBay or PayPal on a refund, they'll lose by default.
If you're still researching it, cancel the refund request to your card company. It's not justified yet.
Sign up for our Newsletter!
© 2026 Created by Steve Cyrkin, Admin.
Powered by
Badges | Report an Issue | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service
