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Authenticity is Everything
RR Auction Withdraws Questionable Black Sabbath Album Brought to Their Attention
UPDATE: I've edited the title of the topic to reflect the fact that the item has now been withdrawn from sale.
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ORIGINAL POST:
While checking out the items currently on offer at RR Auction, I was shocked to spot this Black Sabbath forgery (going at $715 + BP):
The item is stickered by JSA, and has supposedly been "Pre-Certified" by REAL (which I'm inclined to believe means absolutely nothing, i.e. Roger never saw the piece).
Although these very same cheap fakes have been previously discussed in other threads here on the forum (e.g. here), I thought this instance warranted it's own topic.
These amateurish fakes are very common all over eBay. Recently they seem to have adjusted their Iommi signature, but it still look pretty bad. They've also stopped adding the "SABS" and the dates (usually from 1999) to the Ward signatures.
I've compiled below a few examples of these forgeries form eBay, starting from $130. I've also listed some authentic ones, ranging from $900-2000.
FORGED BLACK SABBATH ITEMS ON EBAY:
FAKE: (seller: musicmayhem2016) / $130
FAKE: (seller: gtee2010) / $199
FAKE: (seller: scatpack_2016) / $250
This one even mentions the infamous (nonexistent) "Jeff Danzig" in the description.
FAKE: (seller: *starstruckmemorabilia*) / £395
FAKE: certed by JSA (seller: thetreasuredrock) / $2500
REAL BLACK SABBATH ITEMS ON EBAY:
AUTHENTIC: (seller: wallsofsound2) / $899,99
AUTHENTIC: (seller: wallsofsound2) / $899,99
AUTHENTIC: certed by PSA (seller: inkster_sports) / $1095
AUTHENTIC: certed by PSA (seller: inkster_sports) / $1095
AUTHENTIC: certed by PSA (seller: sig21) / $1099,99
AUTHENTIC: (seller: presspasscollectibles) / $1199,99
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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Well, I care. I don't have knowledge in this specific area re this band, but I care. I read this yesterday - nothing to add but that's me. I did take something away though :)
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Permalink Reply by J. Mikael on
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I just didn't want the topic to vanish into the ether before the auction closes later today, and some poor chump will be out $700+.
Seeing forgers handiwork validated in this way, by respected parties like RR, just annoys me greatly.
I'm also somewhat bothered by the carefree attitude RR seems to take regarding authenticity (i.e. implying Roger has "Pre-Certified" an item, when he probably hasn't).
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Well, I don't know anything about those situations, but in some cases one can do little. The collector has some responsibility as well I think. I am reminded of the common Judy Garland 1960 5x7 b/w Autopen on eBay right now. Some $2000 and an obvious and known Autopen. It should be eliminated from consideration for any number of reasons - but someone will buy it anyway.
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Agreed. It's just disheartening seeing this stuff on the more legit sites like RR. Some collectors will be less cautious when dealing with a credible auction house.
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Ooh. Well, that is also disheartening IMO. I go about that the other way around, without regard to the source.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on
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Have you notified RR as to your concerns? They can't take action if they haven't been notified.
You also keep stating that Roger hasn't pre certified this item as the auction description states. How do you know? In my experience, RR will not use the precertified designation unless it has been reviewed by the expert.
At this point, RR has an item listed that their expert told them was ok. Unless someone questions them or Roger, how would they do anything? They are probably not reading this thread.
I'm not debating the authenticity of the item one way or another, but in my experience, RR makes great efforts to get it right and are by no means "carefree" about authenticity.
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Since the auction is about to close shortly, I wanted to get the information out there first rather than wait for any possible response from RR. After several years of reading this forum, the cynic in me also doubts whether they would even listen to some random guy over their paid expert (or even JSA).
While I hope you're right concerning the "Pre-Certified" designation, I guess I'd like to give Roger the benefit of the doubt in this matter. Passing this item would be a rookie mistake, and he's a pro.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Would you mind saving and then uploading your comparison images? That way we'll be able to see them after the eBay images are gone.
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Yes, I plan on putting together some comparison images. Just wanted to get the information out there before the auction closes.
The main thing making these forgeries easy to identify is that they're all the same. Real Bill Ward autographs have evolved over time, but at no point have they ever looked anything like that. The curved baseline in the Tony Iommi signature is also a consistent feature in these forgeries.
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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on
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I too am not familiar with Black Sabbath signatures, but I noticed that you mentioned seller thetreasuredrock in the list of forged Black Sabbath items. This seller is also offering two of the notorious Jimi Hendrix Experience "signed" Liz Shaw Datebook pages, one of which has been authenticated by PSA ($14,500 OBO) and the other by PSA, JSA and REAL ($25,000 OBO). Both have been on eBay for quite some time.
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I believe that unlike most, the seller thetreasuredrock is actually selling the item in good faith. Most of his inventory that I've seen over the years has looked good. I think they just rely 100% on third party authentication (where the screening process appears to be more flexible for big customers).
When these first came out some years ago, I did see some passed by JSA and maybe one or two by PSA. I doubt either would pass them now.
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