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I had a look at rrauction and noted you certified autographs of >75 different individuals (I stopped counting after a while because there were 8000 auctions). That is what impresses me: authenticators who have such broad knowledge. I guess it’s possible in some fields,
But Beatles autograph collecting might be different. Nobody is going to fake a $50 autograph probably, but it’s different for a signed Harrison LP or a signed Beatles photograph. The number of fakes is extremely high and some are very good. In my view they need specialised experts who only deal with Beatles autographs instead of authenticating a 100 different music artists. Just my opinion but the real good experts are specialised in Beatles, e.g. Tracks and Caiazzo.
And about your assumption that this easily could have happened because someone pushed the wrong button (see above): this is (at least) the second time within a year they have to withdrawn a Beatles-related item. You said nobody can be sure what happened but one would expect more scrutiny. Anyway, they solved the issue thanks to an alert member here, otherwise it would have been sold.
Also, of one of the true experts on this forum hadn’t taken action someone might have paid thousands for this.
Who would have refunded that if the buyer would have found out? Not Epperson because he is not the seller but is only giving a $500 opinion. Rrauction? Well, that’s the question. They did not authenticate it. A third party did that so who is responsible?
I think Servi brings up all great points that can not easily be dismissed. The autograph business is very lucrative these days and places aren’t vetting the items carefully enough. They are trying to get these items rolled out way too quickly to make a buck. Heritage is the same way, way too many fakes in this past Entertainment auction. I will rethink business with RR after this.
I don’t think you should feel that way. Mistakes are inevitable and the item was removed from the auction. I’m sure there are auction houses that would have told someone questioning the authenticity of this item to go get lost.
My subjective opinion: they rely too much on one expert. Just my view!
They did the right thing here, but what if someone had bought it for 5k, only to find out in 20-25 years that it’s fake? For items selling for thousands or even tens of thousands I think they should have better quality control and have more people inspecting their high end items. We all know how flooded the market is with fakes, some of which are very very convincing.
But as others have said: mistakes can happen. If you want certainty then you better not go into autograph collecting.
Finally, there are some specialised Facebook groups that have very knowledgeable collectors. Not a bad idea to ask around for opinions rather than rely solely on an auction house.
Mistakes happen but they always take them down when notified. I've done this as well as a few others.
Servi,
In your reply at about 1:55 AM East Coast time you said:
"But Beatles autograph collecting might be different. Nobody is going to fake a $50 autograph probably, but it’s different for a signed Harrison LP or a signed Beatles photograph."
It may be hard to believe but most forged autographs are $50-$75 or less! That's because they prey on fans and naive collectors who don't know better. They don't realize how common forgeries are.
Steve, I thought the Beatles were unsurpassed when it comes to fakes. At least 90% that is available online is fake. We all know there are terrific specialised authenticators who have many years of experience for the fab 4 only, e.g. Tracks, Caiazzo, Beatleworld and some others. Other knowledgeable collectors have large database with autograph examples categorised by year, venue etc.and there are really good facebook groups where collectors share knowledge (groups of “armchair experts” as one authenticator at rrauctions once called them, but he seems to have forgotten that there is a lot of expertise among collectors because most of them are not stupid when buying a $$$$ item, but that’s another discussion).
When you say the cheap autographs are faked widely, I am even more surprised about authenticators who say they have expertise on autographs of let’s say a hundred people or even hundreds of different people. Most autographs will be in the 50-75 price range, the more expensive ones are a much smaller group.
Steve Z replied to my post (see this thread) and said he authenticated 50,000 autographs! That is for at least 75 different persons, but probably much much more. I understand that my questioning in this thread could be considered too criticial or “loaded” as he called it, but remember that this is a multimillion dollar business and I think (potential) buyers deserve an explanation once an expert replies and says that the public (me!) has no clue about the procedures at this auction house and how the authenticators do their job. Some collectors seem to consider a COA more important than the actual item these days.
Authentication is one thing, obtaining provenance is another: who obtained the autograph, where and when, who sold it and to whom etc. Such information is often lacking. And where are the second, third and fourth opinions that many collectors will obtain before buying? Is that all possible when you pass 50,000 in 11 years? Maybe it is possible, or maybe it isn’t necessary for some autographs?
Finally, if apparantely faked $5000 dollar items could potentially appear on the market due to “procedural glitches” as was postulated above, how can the experts assure that a $50 fake item doesn’t appear on the market because the expert saw it only for the third time, he doesn’t have a database for the particular autograph, he doesn’t recognise the very good recent fake style, doesn’t have the possibilitity to discuss it with others etc.?
Yes I am VERY skeptical, I will immediately admit this, but I may have seen too much poor judgement by experts. Not saying that I could do better but I didn’t choose this profession for a living…
Don't rely on them. Learn the graph, spend the time and be your own expert. No one will see you get what you want but you. These companies...your needs are way down the line. Shareholders first. Brand. You? Reveneue. It's a business. The condition "Fine" is a catchall that causes much trouble, that too drives me crazy. As Steve/Stepeanut said, you need to know more than your source/seller. That is real power from self acquired knowledge. To me, papers and slabs just tell me that the item is maxxed out in price and I am likely overpaying. I buy raw only.
Good points, Eric!
A good collector specialising in only a few autographs often is a better expert than someone earning money by authenticating autographs of hundreds of people. And most of such collectors will share their expertise for free, without any conflict of interest and without working for companies or charging 50-500 for an opinion on paper.
Steve says that 100,000+ authentications a year is not unheard of. Well, that’s a lot in my view (300 per day….). It’s big bussiness and crictical questions are not appreciated apparentely. I asked questions but am told “I have no clue about the process” and make assumptions and it’s made clear who the expert is (doing 50,000 authentications) , but further explanation is not given. I had little confidence already in this bussiness and it hasn’t become better. Just my personal opinion, let that be clear!
yeah good points. and for the most part, I follow the same logic when purchasing autos for my own collection. but if, for example, I decided to buy the autograph of an Astronaut, rather than spend countless hours researching something that I typically do not have much interest in, I would trust the opinion of Steve Zarelli over anyone else in that area. He specializes ONLY in space and is the most highly regarded space authenticator on the planet. So trash the big "money-first" authentication companies that authenticate anything and everything, but not the ones that specialize and authenticate only in that specific area. Don't bother responding, Servi, I am not getting into a verbal battle with you on this. Just needed to add some clarity.
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