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Authenticity is Everything
ok... What kind of licenses do PSA, GAI and JSA possess???
ok.. this is a tricky one. I went to a Guitar buyer recently (they travel around and advertise that they are buying vintage guitars etc.). I'm looking to sell my autographed guitars and signed pickgards- i have too many autographs and not enough room to display them so my wife said to get rid of these- which i'm fine with- i'd rather just go back to buying vintage and concert used guitars anyway.
so here's the story. Their ad said "WE BUY SIGNED GUITARS." as well as everything else they were buying. so i took a few over there to see what they were willing to pay and what they were buying. The items in Question:
1) Metallica signed guitar from 2008- a james hetfield model guitar Truckster from 2008 signed by the whole band.
2) a Les Paul special (fairly cheap gibson guitar) signed by Roger Waters
3) a les paul special (also a cheaper model guitar) signed by REM's 3 members.
now i'm sure that they are just doing all this because they are really hoping someone will bring in something special that they don't know the value of. I already understood that this is a bunch of vultures hoping to pick on some people who are out of work and NEED the money (this area has lost over 400,000 jobs in the past 4 years) and will sell cheap. but i have a specific price i want for the items and i figured that if they came close, i'd be happy. but i don't NEED the money by any means and could hang this stuff in the restaurant in the bowling alley if i want to. so here's what happened.
There was a lady who met me at the door. her job was to greet and get people to fill out the form of what they were selling and provide a name and contact information. that was fine.. but then she started to explain something interesting.
"WE are looking for stuff that has been examined by a licensed authenticator." which really got to me.. who is a LICENSED AUTHENTICATOR? I had asked her, but she kind of explained to me that this is someone with a governed type of licensing. Like there's a Government agency testing and licensing signature authenticators.
I did ask if she was talking about PSA DNA, JSA etc. and she didn't really know what i was talking about. She did know who PSA DNA was and that they take stuff that's been authenticated by them before. But I don't think that any of those guys are licensed to do anything? Are they? There's no licensing board or administrative board giving these guys licenses is there? this is the question I'm asking.
in the end. I ended up spending a few hours with the buyers talking about autographs etc. they wouldn't sell me a guitar I wanted for myself because this was just a middleman service and they weren't there to sell guitars. after seeing my proof pics and seeing that you can see the precise autograph being signed onto the guitar they made me a few offers... basically- $50 per autograph above the cost of the guitar. they tried telling me that since everyone I had was still alive and not very valuable as a result (no one over there apparently knows how tough michael stipe or james hetfield are- especially on guitars). They tried telling me that the guys in Metallica are really only worth $10 an autograph- even after i told them that I sold a James Hetfield 8x10 on ebay for $80.
Then a guy came in with a guitar signed by The Eagles- complete. with a letter of authenticity from Ballpark collectibles. he had no proof pics and no licensed authenticator letter. and when they tried to call Ballpark collectibles, every phone number didn't work. so they didn't even make an offer..
After all this, i'm sure they were just hoping to unearth some kind of treasure like a guitar signed by buddy holly or something and get it cheap... cause i saw what kind of guitars they were buying and some of the stuff they turned down was pretty nice too.. i didn't see another autograph come through the door though.
AGAIN THOUGH. DO PSA DNA, GAI, JSA HOLD ANY TYPE OF LICENSE OTHER THAN YOUR STANDARD BUSINESS LICENSE???
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mike P on
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I don't want to start a war with this whole authentication thing, so let me make this short and sweet. First off, X off GAI from the authentication list, as they really aren't on the same "level" as PSA and JSA. PSA and JSA, through the years as you might know, have gained a lot of prestige in the business of autographs. The problem in this scenario is that you met a bunch of meatheads who don't know a thing about autographs. Not a thing. People who only rely on the paper of certification of PSA and JSA don't know anything about autographs. IF they did, they would know how hard it is to get Stipe and Hetfield on anything let alone a guitar. It's sad how this hobby has become. People have huge collections with a variety of people but they never have seen each individuals' signature before. The only thing these "collectors" do is go on eBay and type in the name of the athlete/celebrity they want and type PSA or JSA next to his or her name.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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There are no professional licenses for autograph authenticators of course. Just like there aren't for gem certification services, etc. Just like there aren't for autograph dealers, coin dealers, jewelers, stamp and sports card dealers.... only some appraisers in some states have professional licenses, and auctioneers. I don't know the licensing rules for auctioneers, tho.
Then again, car repair shops are licensed and who doesn't have a pile of horror stories there?
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Permalink Reply by Bill Panagopulos on
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Can't open that link, Greg.
But...both licensed and unlicensed dogs crap on sidewalks. And people step in it.
It all really comes down to their training.
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That's the best billism I've heard in ages...love it.
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Permalink Reply by James R. Altmann on
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They have no license, other than a business license. No they are not licensed by the courts (we know this isn't always a good thing!) and they are not accredited through any national or state agencies. They are an incorporated business or limited liability company giving you their opinion for a scheduled fee. Plain and simple. I don't think this needs to be explained. Everyone knows this. I have zero problems at all with PSA or any other authenticator (a lot of them are quite good) as long as it is stated, and it is, that it is their "opinion" and nothing else.
I agree and must comment on what Greg stated about the young collectors - not in years, but in experience. I am not judging either way, but it is a microcosm of society today. People had rather someone else give them an answer to a question than educate themselves and learn the answer on their own. I believe that is what is great about this site, it is an educational and learning tool in real time that was absent until its advent. I realize a company such as the one Mike had an experience with doesn't have the time for such things, so to that I say: stay out of the business of signatures altogether! They should be buying what they seem to know and apparently that is vintage instruments. There are way too many people spending their money (on autographs) that have no business at all doing such.
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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on
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I agree Mike. Even though I authenticate NASCAR items for Global, I make sure that my opinions on NASCAR items are free to anyone. without having to go through the COA process.
That's also why I do NASCAR signature studies. I want to see more collector's educated by doing their home work.
Ebay isn't as focused on COA's as they have been in the past. There is a looong story to tell about that. I won't get into it. However, no authentication company gets a free ride at ebay.
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Brandon: I know you said that the story is too long to go into, but I was wondering if you (or anyone else with the knowledge) could give a brief sinopsis as to why ebay isn't as focused on COAs, authenticator thumbs up or down, removing items, etc. as the used to be. I understand there are other people on this site that know the behind the scenes workings at ebay, but it is something I am curious about. Seems they stopped "caring" a year or so ago, because in that time I have seen a lot more Johnny-Come-Lately types than I have in many years.
My assumption is that they probably got hit with a lawsuit from a p.oed seller that had their items yanked by a third party authenticator. I could be way off base, but I believe when you have someone else making a decision for another company and that negatively affects the business of someone else it is ultimately going to lead to disaster. Is this even remotely close to what has happened?
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No lawsuit, just a smarter Fraud Division which does not give carte blanche to any authentication company. It's just a smarter team now.
There are a few companies and experts that won't survive the updated view.
The list of banned experts / companies will be updated as it occurs I'm sure.
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See I think that this is a point that needs to be driven home with collectors and many dealers who attempt to mis-use the coa process as gospel. When I authenticate a NASCAR autograph, I make sure that it is known as my opinion and done so in my name ( the coa actually has my namme and signature on it ). These coas that are issued under multiple names or have a non authenticator name on them is a serious issue for me. People should be able to know who gave the opinion(s) and then be able to talk to us directly if need be.
I care more about protecting the hobby, collectors, and drivers than I am making $. That's why I don't charge to authenticate items. Sadly, and I think any of us can agree, there is an element of greed associated with the whole process of authentication. It is a business for these companies afterall. But personally, many experts do good things for the hobby.
Then we have comapnies like STAT Morales, etc. Who seem to use their coas to protect questionable items for their associates and / or friends.
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One thing that I try to do each time I give a failing opinion on an item is to provide information to the collector as to how I reached my decision. A blank "yes" or "no" opinion is too primitive for today's market.
Authenticators and experts need to open up and take time to interact with the customers. Especially if it's a service they are paying for. If an expert fails a signature there is a reason why. The customer should be made aware of this. at the very least, it may educate them and keep them from making similar mistakes.
People will say "they are too busy" . However, I think it needs to be the trend. If that means authentications are delayed a while longer, it will be worth it.
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Exactly! Either we create a paradigm shift, or one is created around us. The collectors expect a lot from us. And they deserve the right to ask the When's, why's, and how's especially if they are buying a service.
It's up to the customers to demand it. They have the ultimate vote.
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Exactly! When I authenticate. Or fail a group of say 100 nascar items I give that customer the same amount of time and information as I do the customer that just wants 1 item looked at. I didn't have. To be told this, I just figured that's common sense. If they have questions, as the authenticator, I should answer them.
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