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Beatles Magical Mystery Tour set- copy?

There are a lot of great items available at auction this next week and I recognize most of them from the last 20 years but this new one on R&R has got me doubting myself and could use some help. 

It looks great but a little too familiar... anyone remember this one that was signed for the boy in the opening scene of the movie that sold at Bonhams like 5 years ago and again at Gotta Have It last year...

Is it possible that these were signed immediately after each other? There are extremely subtle differences in each signature but they are 99.9% identical.  I would love to hear your thoughts.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 4, 2018 at 12:21pm

Richard,

I don't think that anyone in this discussion has seen your piece in person. Most forgeries can be determined from a photo, but I can't imagine that the look of the autographs on your piece would cause anyone who knows Beatles autographs to question them in the least. Only by comparing your set to the other one did the alarm bells go off for some of us.

Your set and the RR set are so close that I think they need to be carefully researched, no cost to you, and not just for these two sets. Technology is getting better all the time and the process of autograph authentication is not keeping up.

I think that your set and the one RR sold need to be sent to Roger Epperson, Frank Caiazzo and Paul and Jason at Tracks for side-by-side investigation and collaboration. Frank Caiazzo has a seemingly photographic memory for Beatles autographs. The 3 of them examining and discussing your piece could lead to discoveries that could help authentication throughout the hobby.

I'd also send them to someone for scientific analysis using comparators and other tools. Nothing that would be destructive.

LMK if you're interested in participating and I'll see if the others are interested in being involved.

Permalink Reply by Ryan on August 4, 2018 at 12:44pm

That’s a cool idea. I wonder if they’d all go for it. Both of these sets came to market around the same time but it was like 5-6 years ago. Was the technology that good back then? I still think Richard’s is good and the other isn’t for all the reasons I’ve given previously but if the experts found them both to be authentic, it wouldn’t surprise me I guess.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 4, 2018 at 1:35pm

We don't know for sure if any technology was involved here. Some people who really know their stuff think that both sets were signed by the Beatles, pen to paper. But we discovered machine-signed, mass-produced Mantles, Williams and DiMaggios with enough variations that they fooled dealers and collectors for many years, and often still do.

Permalink Reply by Richard624 on August 4, 2018 at 12:52pm

That is great, I would be happy to participate in that. 

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 4, 2018 at 1:18pm

Great, thanks! Talk to Omega first. I don't know the auction house well but I don't recall hearing that they were an iffy auction house. If the consignor told them that he was the boy and it turns out he wasn't, Omega needs to handle this ASAP so they can hopefully get their money back. 

Permalink Reply by Ryan on August 4, 2018 at 1:24pm

Omega’s consignor wasn’t the boy. It was won at auction from SAS in 2013 and then consigned to Gotta Have it by I think a French gentleman (if I remember correctly) who pulled the consignment and then either sold it or auctioned it at Omega. I think Pete at Gotta Have It would know more but I’m pretty sure they don’t like to share info about their consignors. Pretty standard practice.

Permalink Reply by Richard624 on August 6, 2018 at 10:11am

I heard back from Omega, and it is pretty much that they stand by what they sold as being genuine. If I had been able to prove within two weeks of receipt that they were fake, they would have refunded.

They had no comment on what they sold as being so similar to the other piece. 

They mentioned that they never said they received the auction item from the guy who originally got the autographs and mentioned a trail similar to what Ryan has posted.

My earlier comment was incorrect. I went back through everything and didn't see anything that shows that they made that assertion. It was my looking at the description and assuming the item was from the person who originally got the autographs.

I will post their exact response once I get my internet access squared away. 

Richard

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 6, 2018 at 12:44pm

Very interesting. Was Ballroom right after all (earlier)?

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 4, 2018 at 1:27pm

Ryan,

So I don't have to read back, were you told it was consigned to Omega by the boy who got it signed?

Permalink Reply by Ryan on August 4, 2018 at 1:36pm

No, but I haven’t seen the auction listing in a while. I just know it wasn’t from the boy.

Permalink Reply by Richard624 on August 4, 2018 at 2:11pm

I think to be fair, I should say it was my understanding it was originally from the boy, I will have go back to our correspondence and see if that is the case. I could have misunderstood, or just assumed it was and that they didn't "present" as such. 

Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on August 4, 2018 at 2:15pm

Here's the description from the 2014 SAS auction:

The Beatles Autographs / Magical Mystery Tour: exceptional full set of rare autographs on approx 7"" x 9.5"" white paper sheet displaying extremely large unrushed bold signatures in black ballpoint and felt pen, reverse with signing details in pencil plus the MMT coach registration number plate. Provenance - the autographs were obtained by a young boy who was asked to line up in front of The Atlantic Hotel, September 1967 whilst in Newquay along with The Beatles, cast members and other extras; this actual footage was included in the film and appears in the opening credits where he can be clearly seen, also can be seen in the MMT EP booklet, complete with full letter of provenance and four colour photographs, showing the recipient of the signatures with The Beatles and cast members

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