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Authenticity is Everything
Secretarial Autographs: Post Yours Here
Note: 11/3/2011 THREAD RULEs;
1. If You are gonna post a picture in this Thread then PLEASE leave it POSTED. When there is commentary for it or comparisons & then removed the Thread overall has a problem and many, including me, don't know what the heck someone is/was talking about. If it's a personally owned one then put a watermark on it if that's a worry. But DON"T Delete. I do from time to time copy them just in case but now always" . 11/3/2011
2. If you are posting an item from an "auction" site (ebay etc...) then pls post the actual picture, and then a link to it along with the "auction" or source site. Links become dated and items disappear for a variety of reasons (12/4/2011)
As one wanders around the WWW on auction sites or blogs it is inevitable that the "secretarials" verbiage will arise. There are many breakout discussions (see a partial list below that hopefully, I captured the greater majority of threads) and in typical fashion we deviate on many threads (which I have not captured) and throw in a secretarial here & there.
Many times the secretarials focus on the high end selling items as opposed to the mid level ones e.g. The Honeymooners. Of course, the secretarials differ, at least in verbiage, to the Clubhouse, AutoPen or outright forgeries (there are lots of good threads on) but that is not for this discussion.
But back to the midlevel ones like Roy & Dale Evans, Barbara Striesand, Mary Tyler Moore or Tony Curtis to mention a few. I will add 3 pictures of authentic ones (there may be variations) for the latter three but don't have the secretarials for a side by side (which I like to see as it provides a good visual). Anyone have some? So at the risk of biting off too much (if an area takes off, perhaps I can create a breakout thread for it) what are OTHER KNOWN Secretarials and their Authentic ones and why Secretarials?
for reference only;
http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/most-forged-signatur...
http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/charlton-heston-secr... Charlton Heston
Then we have the unfortunate masacree Vanderhoven Threads;
Montgomery Clift; http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/montgomery-clift-opi...
Tags: fakes, secretarials
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 029r4yc06b4rr on
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I had heard that Clapton had used a sec before. And ive seen a ton of the ones like this, im glad i never bought them, their low price just kept me away. Otherwise i probably would have been duped. Thanks for posting this one Roger. His autograph has gone up so much in value that more forgeries are bound to show up.
Chris
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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on
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I wouldn't call them forgeries; that sounds too intentional in making a profit to me. They are secretarial, someone who signs his mail due to time restraints.
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Speaking of the TM auction in November '11 it appears that another "great star" autograph has been alledged to be a secretarial on a "form letter". I believe there was a Judy garland signature study published in one of the best autograph magazines of all time in June of 2008! Any comments?
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Just a new tidbit; Do our "historical" sellers have some examples of these "secretarials" described below:
" In the early months of WWII, U.S. Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall felt obligated to sign every condolence letter sent to the families of slain soldiers. But as the death rate increased, he was forced to assign an assistant to "forge" his signature to the letters. The surrogate signatures were hard to distinguish from the originals. General Douglas MacArthur rarely signed a WWII condolence letter personally and all of his letters to families were signed by one of two assistants who tried hard to duplicate his signature but the "forgeries" were distinguished by an unusually high letter "l" and a skinny "D". During the early stage of the Korean War, MacArthur personally signed condolence letters. As the fatalities increased, the General began to use letters with pre-printed signatures.
In the 1952 Presidential Election, General Eisenhower often had secretaries forge his name to campaign letters and "personally inscribed" autographed photographs"
Walt Disney (1955), had several of his cartoonists duplicate his artistic signature on replies to children seeking his autograph.
Texan paper currency was signed in ink by Sam Houston, though not handwritten by Houston himself.
The Oct. 1986 Smithsonian magazine explored the "melting timepieces" artwork of the Spanish painter Salvador Dali. It quoted one of his secretaries as claiming that she signed the artist's signature to postcard depictions of his paintings. Another article in the April 2005 Smithsonian noted: "In 1965 he began selling signed sheets of otherwise blank lithograph paper for $10 a sheet. He may have signed well over 50,000 in the remaining quarter century of his life, an action that resulted in a flood of Dalí lithograph forgeries
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Permalink Reply by john reznikoff on
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I would suggest Phil sears for authenticating Disney Secretaries http://www.philsears.com/disney.htm#authentication%20policy
paul Carr's book on Eisenhower is the best.
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thanks Rez.,, "borrowed" from Phil Sears on Disney (seems to collaborate the above with more insight)
"Is It True Other People at the Disney Studio Were Allowed To Sign Walt's Name?
At least a dozen Disney Studio staff members signed Walt Disney's name to comics, fan items, promotional material, etc., over the years. The most common proxy signatures are by Hank Porter in the 1930's & 1940's, and Bob Moore beginning in the 1950's. Keep in mind that Walt NEVER drew a single Walt Disney newspaper comic or comic book, but every one of those was "signed" with a Walt Disney signature- by the artist, of course. Fortunately, Walt's own writing has distinct characteristics that distinguish it from these copies. Even so, autograph "experts" have written books in which they mis-identify Walt's autograph and those of his artists. I can usually pinpoint a Disney signature to within a few years of the date it was signed, or- if an artist signed it- I can usually tell you which one. It's my silly little niche, but I know it well. When you purchase Walt Disney's autograph from me, WALT DISNEY signed it."
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Via Phil Sears, "About 20 years ago I asked an animation restoration expert named Steve Worth why he didn't publish some of his knowledge about properly identifying historical animation art (how to spot fakes, etc.); what a wealth that would be to collectors. He told me that it would serve as guide to forgers. At the time that seemed a little pessimistic, maybe even paranoid. Now having been buying, selling, and collecting Walt Disney autographed items for two decades, I completely understand what he meant! The high price of Disney's autograph is a huge magnet for forgers. Unfortunately, it is the forgers who benefit most from expert advice and examples,"
Phil goes on to say that even providing authentic ones can be problematic as it gives the "novice" collector just enough information to become dangerous.
we have certainly had this discussion and then some.
"Also, because Walt Disney's autograph evolved so dramatically over his life, it's impractical to publish every variation. So without enough examples, the uncommon, sharp-eyed collector may notice his authentic Disney autograph doesn't match and mistakenly declare it secretarial."
but hopefully we will obtain some classic secretarials that at least elimnate a batch of them...
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Permalink Reply by CEE GEE on
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THESE FROM WHAT I WAS TOLD ARE KNOWN TTM SECRETARIAL AUTOGRAPHS OF
ROBERT DENIRO...
RICHARD DRYFUSS AND
JOHN TRAVOLTA...
THESE ARE NOT AUTHENITCATED BUT WHERE ALL TTM AUTOS....I REALLY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF HOLLYWOOD AUTOS BUT THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD SO SINCE MORE COLLECTORS KNOW BETTER THEN I DO HERE THEY ARE...
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Permalink Reply by Peter Lougheed on
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Do the two autographs on this card look like secretarials?
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First, Mike, Where did you come up with all of the conspiracy stuff? This is a card I bought about 10 to 15 years ago and was looking for some opinions on its authenticity. Wow, you seem to be a very paranoid person. Look at my original 10-word question, and RELAX. I have never been anything but honest on this website.
Second, thanks for the info, that is what I was hoping for.
Pete
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ok, glad to see we have cleared this up.
It has happened here quite often and when it doesn't the Pogo's who have nothing better to do and can't join in with our "reindeer games" start fabricating stories or libel as the case maybe. What was that movie with Rowdy Piper and the aliens that "walk amongst us"? We have had the snake imposters even roam these threads (Present company EXCLUDED) which is why we get testy & defensive....
I do suspect that if the "opinionators" as I like to refer to them gave out too much information it would give more fuel to the debate. The person paying for it though is frankly owed an explanation and not the typical form letter.
I also have the chris sink ones via TTM out for an opinion as well and hopefully we can get some insight there on them in the not too distant future.
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No problem, Mike. Case closed....and I appreciate the info. If the Sid Caesar auto is legitimate (as it appears to be), I wonder why someone would forge Travolta's autograph and make the card worthless.
In terms of TTM responses from NHL players and alumni, you guys may not realize it, but the success rate I have had after more than 1300 TTM requests to hockey players is almost 80%. Current super-stars like Ovechkin and Crosby usually send back postcards with pre-printed autographs (and Gretzky sends back auto-penned signatures), but some second tier stars like Rick Nash still respond with real signatures. Retired NHL players are the best. I would say my success with retired NHL players is almost 90%. What other sport has a TTM success rate like that?
Happy New Year!
Pete
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