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Authenticity is Everything
Have you guys heard of canadagraphs?
They have several once upon a time cast members and a signed picture with multiple cast members.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sam Riley on
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I'm not usually one to butt in but, you're giving examples of LEE ARENBERG. One of the classiest guys in the industry and I'm sorry to say, Autograph World can't even sell him for $5.
I've posted examples of AW's Lee Arenberg. They look identical to both Canadagraphs and Outlaw. Don't you all here think AW is authentic?
http://www.autographworld.com/original/lot.asp?item=17&bc=00004...
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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on
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I think autographworld is typically a very good source. I own many many pieces from them. But they do get fakes in from time to time. I have returned i believe 3 pieces that on further examination, i didnt feel they were authentic. One probably was good, but i returned it to be safe. No probs with the return process either which was good.
I appreciate Jason Thanos commenting, as he is a solid guy, but this OUAT poster that Canadagraphs was selling is fake. I am familiar with some of there signatures, and some look fairly decent on the poster. But when you examine all the signatures, it becomes strikingly obvious, that one or maybe 2 people signed every signature.
Are you claiming you got all these signatures on this poster yourself Canadagraphs??? Or did you purchase it from a "trusted" source. Or did a trusted friend give it to you?? If you are legit like Thanos says, then you do need an apology for doubting your other items. But the fact remains, that this OUAT cast signed poster has numerous forgeries on it. Maybe some legit, but its pretty obvious they are forgeries. Others may disagree, but i am confident that they many if not all are fake.
As for faking no name/unsellable signatures. We all know that it happens constantly. People are so desperate and stupid that they fake reprints which are worth pennies. Yet people do buy them. I collect guitarist autographs, some very very obscure. They arent famous in the sense of the world in some cases, and the collectible value is non existant. Yet i always have to do my homework, b/c people even fake them. A good example is Buddy Guy. Guy is a very desirable blues signature. His autos used to go for 50 to 60 bucks years ago. Then he started his own store on ebay and sells autod pictures for 20 dollars. Its hard to get more official than that unless you get it IP. You can now buy signed pics all day long from him on ebay, and his signatures can now easily be found for 10 to 20 dollars. Yet he is still very very widely forged. His auto is now worth very little on many items, yet forgers continue to forge him. Especially on multi signed pieces. Forging a no name signature on this poster to add to the appeal would be expected if someone was going to take the time to forge any signature. This item is a forgery in my opinion. Is Canadagraphs a big forgery ring and related to outlawhobies, i have no idea. If they are they need shut down. If not, then canadagraphs needs to remove this poster b/c it is questionable at best. Since you spent so much time around these people Canadagraphs, why not post pics of your other OUAT sigs so we can see them and compare
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Permalink Reply by Canadagraphs Collectibles on
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Carl, sorry, you are wrong. Not sure what it will take to get it thru your head.
You want me to get a cast member on video (from 1 of the 1s Ryan circled even) to state they actually signed it? I am pretty confident I can get several of them to so next time I cross paths with them. Will THAT appease your doubts?
Serious question. Did you even read MY analysis of Ryans circles? Read THAT 1st, and tell me you still believe any of his work is even remotely credible after doing so.
No, I'm NOT "claiming" to have gotten them myself, I actually DID get them myself. I don't buy autographs. I was the person physically getting each graph. I didn't "leave it with someone to get so & so" or mail it to someone. Each and every person on that item was signed by the entertainer at a set, hotel or airport in Vancouver during season 1 & the 1st couple months of season 2.
After this is done, you are going to doubt every decision you have ever made in autographs, I suspect. Because I know they are real. I have the confidence that I can get 1 or 2 of the cast in the next few weeks to look at it and on video verify they signed it (and not secondary fillers, but the main cast that were in question).
I didn't dispute that others have sold lower tier peoples fakes. My point, which I am noticing A LOT here, is something people conveniently want to overlook in lieu of id disagreeing with their viewpoint, was that the people doing those, also are doing top tier stars, and for every Lee Arenberg or Raphael Sbarge they have listed, they have 4 Justin Biebers or 3 Lady Gagas as well. They don't have a proportionate amount of D listers to A listers, because they make their money off the A listers. No one wants to sit on dead stock, especially a forger who is only concerned about the money. Odd, most of my experiences are with hockey, and when you see a team signed jersey with fakes, its almost always the opposite, its the stars that the guy couldn't get that have been faked, not the healthy scratches... also, with the exception of Arenberg, all the cast members Ryan circled aren't "no namers" they are the main cast. Which goes directly against your logic. There is the BIG issue, your "opinion". You are allowed to have an opinion, even a wrong one. Mine isn't an opinion. Nothing I've said is opinion. I only stated facts...you just are too obsessed with not being wrong to realize it yet.
Not that I should have to post all my OUAT items, since as I stated on the 1st page of this debate, my stuff is easily findable on a google search, it literally takes 30 seconds to find. But, since you are too lazy to look.... I have an entire gallery of OUAT items http://canadagraphs.weebly.com/once-upon-a-time-autographs.html guess you didn't take my original advice in this thread, to actually investigate, and spend time deciding. Nope, instead you just read your fellow Ryans "analysis" of 1 item, an analysis btw which was shredded to bits (if you bother to look back in the thread and find it) instead of forming your own opinion.
You really should re-think every item you've ever "analyzed" on here. Did you actually bother analyzing them, or did you just parrot what someone you like said 1st? Its clear that's whats happening here, as I cant imagine you & Ryan both would say the exact same thing for any other reason. As Thanos pointed out, I only have 1 good eye & even I could blatantly tell the circled items on Ryans "proof" pic were done by completely different people. I actually think Ryan is a complete, brain dead, imbecile with a learning disability. You, I just think is someone who admires a complete, brain dead, imbecile with a learning disability. My question is, why?
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Permalink Reply by Null on
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Canadagraphs,
I have said I know nothing about OUAT graphs, and if you say you got them IP I'll respect that. You cannot deny that there were several red flags that they could be signed by the same person.
I'm flattered by the name calling, not once did I stoop that low with you. As always, I try to keep my responses on the SIGNATURES in question. If I made a mistake, I will gladly admit that and edit my responses accordingly. I do not know OUAT cast sigs (or what OUAT even is) and as Jason said, nobody knows. If I am wrong, that is fine as I could care less about OUAT I was simply discussing and doubting the signatures as they looked eerily similar. It is good for these discussions to happen among us collectors. Perhaps that is just how they sign.
I still am not convinced that the same hand is not signing outlaws material.
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Permalink Reply by Jason on
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First off, I'm new to this site. I have been reading it for a long time but I feel like I had to make an account to come on this thread and give my two cents to this situation. I know I will probably get flamed for my comments but it doesn’t really matter to me, I just want to give my opinion.
I just wanted to let you all know that the comments and accusations that are being thrown around about Canadagraphs are uncalled for. I have known him for years and can vouch for the authenticity of his items. I am from Toronto and can tell you that he comes here for the film fest every year. I have personally seen him get hundreds of autographs with my own eyes over the years. His autographs are real.
Also the discussion about "Proof", I have some comments about that as well. Exact proof is hard to take, I try as much as I can but celebrities along with their handlers are VERY cautious about people taking proof photos of them. I have been told many times before the celebrity signs not to take proof. I have also been yelled at by the celebrity or handler for taking proof while they are signing. If you have multiple items and want them all signed, it is not the best idea to blast them in the face for each item as they will stop signing. I don't mean to be abrasive when I say this but anyone on this site would know these things if they actually encountered a celebrity in real life. People on here talking about taking proof photos with cell phones, have fun trying to flip photos while trying to take photos with a cell phone. These comments are absurd. I really don’t mean to rub anyone the wrong way and I want to stay neutral to the situation, but most people on here are judging Canadagraphs for things that they have never done before. People think hounding is easy, it is not. Celebrities are very mean and don't want to sign. Proper hounding is an art.
To the people who are talking about PSA, JSA authentication etc. Third party authentication is a joke. I have personally seen with my own eyes JSA as well as PSA "Experts" looking on eBay to find examples of "real" autographs to compare in person signed items to. I have also personally been approached by certain people at JSA wanting to sell holograms. This is not right and downright despicable. Anyone can put those stickers on anything and say it's real. This is why I say third party authentication is a joke. Also, with authentication, celebrities sign very different in different situations. I have received every letter signatures while in one on one situation and then got the same celebrity later the same day on a red carpet and got sloppy initials. How are they supposed to authenticate one from the other?
Anyway, I'm done giving my opinion, yes it's an opinion, please don't flame me for giving my opinion. This board is a good source for the autograph community, but in reality there are way bigger problems in this hobby to worry about then Canadagraphs. You are all unknowingly attacking one of the good guys in this hobby and it's sad to see. Thanks for reading and I hope my post goes over well as my first post on the boards.
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Sam/Jason (both brand new members within the past 45 minutes who joined specifically for this thread, how convenient)
Regardless of proof photos/hounding/how crappy 3rd party authentication is, do both of you disagree that these were all signed by the same hand?
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I completely disagree. First off, who is faking a cheap soccer autograph, a what looks like hockey autograph and a Lee Arenberg? I'm sorry but none of those look like the same hand to me. Slant is completely different from the Lee to the hockey to the Bonjour.
The J's I can't even see how you make a comparison...PSA looks at pen lift, pen stroke, and slant/angle. And just by looking between the J comparisons, they are all unique.
I feel you are unjustly attacking actual legitimate dealers here. You need to go look at the guys trying to sell Christopher Lee autographs at 9.99 auctions. Not people who actually have built up reputations for years and years of collecting and selling authentic autographs.
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I completely disagree with you Sam. It takes little to no effort to see that many of the examples in the collage above were all signed by the same hand. Its very obvious on numerous ones. And you know that. That is if you collect autos. Canadagraphs may be a legit guy all around, but this OUAT poster is no good. I dont know how he got it, and i dont care about the story. the signatures speak volumes.
As for why someone would forge a low value item. Again, if you collect autographs, you would not say this statement. B/c a collector knows that autographs that are worth little to nothing are forged all the time. You can find forgeries all day from even the least known celebs. So that is no defense. And why should we look at Chris Lee forgeries and take our eyes off of this forgery OUAT poster? Chris Lee goes after the people selling his forgeries himself. The OUAT signers dont. This may just be the rotten egg in the carton when it comes to canadagraphs inventory. but this poster is bad in my opinion, and there are many signatures that are obviously signed by the same person
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Ok, I don't care WHAT Wascher says. The two Ryans are the same person.
No way 2 of you can look at that collage of "proof" & see the same thing when everyone else doesn't.
Best part of it, you picked examples that don't even moderately look close to being done by the same people... and somehow got Ryan2 to agree with you.
Apparently I also sign all of Lees CERTIFIED cards too
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/STAR-TREK-TNG-HEROES-VILLAINS-AUTOGRAPH-LEE-...
I also managed to get a gig signing all of Ryan Murrays autographs as well (someone I'd never even met...but allegedly you think I've mastered his autograph despite never having a real 1 to look at)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/13-14-UPPER-DECK-FALL-EXPO-PRIORITY-SIGNINGS...
So, whats more plausible? I'm signing certified cards for celebs & athletes around the world, OR your analysis is so riddled with failure that, everyone outside of you 2 realizes your examples aren't even remotely close to the same.
Did you just look up every graph with a D & J & screen cap that as "proof"? Because outside of the fact that's what letters they are, the similarities stop there pretty much (except for the Kinnaman & whoever is right beside it)
The 5 D's don't have a single defining similar characteristic outside of the letter of the alphabet they are and that they aren't done in cursive writing style (how you are taught to write a D in school)....
The Js are pretty much just as bad. You basically looked for anyone whose name starts with a J that does it with a loop at the bottom & automatically went "OMG, they all have loops at the bottom, they are all the same person". Despite there being 100s of examples of JMos & Kinnamans on ebay for you to compare to these, (wait, that woulda meant doing actual investigating...sorry, forgot who I was talking to). Are all of those fake too??? Or just mine & Outlaw Hobbies? Because then you are opening up a hornets nest of some conspiracy that dozens of dealers must be in on.
The Ls, well I've already torn apart 4/5 of your "examples".... since you bothered to post THREE Lee Arenbergs (shouldn't they all be relatively similar? Isnt that what you've been trying to say??) and the 1 hockey guy that I've never met.
You both (wait sorry, forgot, 2 accounts, 1 person)..err you should really take an actual course on handwriting analysis....then take a second 1 after you fail the 1st one. You are, unquestionably, the WORLDS worth autograph analysis I've encountered.
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Permalink Reply by Mike P on
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Sam- plenty of people fake cheap soccer autographs because no one expects them to be faked, and therefore people buy them. What's more: 100 fake signed soccer photographs for $5 each or one fake team signed jersey for $200?
I could post literally dozens of fake signed soccer items from inexpensive players but I am not going to bother-the scans Ryan has provided should be clear as crystal even to people who aren't into the hobby--blatantly done by the same hand
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I'm sorry Mike, you're an expert on MLS autographs now? Because as far as I know Ken is a massive MLS fan, including a Vancouver Whitecaps season ticket holder. From what I know he gets soccer autographs as a hobby more than anything.
Please provide your insight (and proof!) because I'm really intrigued by the "fake soccer autographs" you speak of. PSA quick opinion told me a Clint Dempsey autograph and a Robbie Keane autograph of his were both deemed authentic. Should I post that as my proof?
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You're taking my post out of context first off, and secondly and you seem to know "Ken" very well.
I was speaking in general, people DO in fact fake inexpensive autographs of soccer players because they are able to get away with it. Who would forge an autograph of a cheap player for $5? is what some buyers might think
And no, I am not an expert of MLS and never said I was. I have obtained soccer autographs from European players for 15 years; therefore, when you say "who is faking a cheap soccer autograph?" as if no one would do such a thing, I strongly disagree. I will recopy my above post, I want you to show me where I said any soccer autograph of his was authentic, if I mentioned any soccer autograph in particular, and if I called myself an "MLS expert."
Previous post:
Sam- plenty of people fake cheap soccer autographs because no one expects them to be faked, and therefore people buy them. What's more: 100 fake signed soccer photographs for $5 each or one fake team signed jersey for $200?
I could post literally dozens of fake signed soccer items from inexpensive players but I am not going to bother-the scans Ryan has provided should be clear as crystal even to people who aren't into the hobby--blatantly done by the same hand
I have no desire to exchange private messages with you either (in reference to the one you sent me), so reply to my post if you would like to discuss anything with regard to this post.
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