Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 28, 2011 at 2:59pm

@Robert,

I look forward to talking to you at the Show this Friday (April 1).

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 28, 2011 at 10:26am

@ Mike,

Yes, I do agree that the forged items should be completely pulled from the market - and you should cut the physical item in half (or shred it) so that it will never be attempted to be sold again.

However, I believe the "information" should not be destroyed - since it will serve as valuable exemplars in both prosecuting the criminals as well as to prevent future fraud.  By registering the fakes, we are not "celebrating nor showing-off" these fakes.  Rather, we are documenting the evidence.  If you just throw away the bad items, then other people may not know about them.  My study shows that many forgers also have their own unique way of signing - in fact, they are actually "autographing" their attempted fake signatures. Just destroying one bad item (or even many items) in the trash does not necessarily help, since most forgers can create many more items  very quickly to replace destroyed ones.

So, in my opinion, only way to make the forgery disappear from the market (eventually) is to actually document all known forgeries in one location.  Plus, not only document the bad items, but also document all bad transactions associated with those items (meaning, who created them, who sold them, who authenticated them and who purchased them).  It is much harder to generate unique provenance for multiple fake items and pass the test of public scrutiny.

I hope you will be able to participate in the system to make the whole process work.  Your continued input will be much appreciated.

Permalink Reply by Anthony Bautista on March 28, 2011 at 1:59pm

No matter what though . There are still a ton of flaws and bottom line in the end some one is proffiting off it . If it was a free data base then I could see .

Permalink Reply by Richard Kim on March 28, 2011 at 2:40pm

We have many different ways to categorize the items.  In addition, we can have multiple signatures per item (with each signature having its own provenance).  Then each signature's authenticity is categorized as:

Authentic (In-Person)

Authentic (Certified/COA)

Authentic (Definitely)

Authentic (Probably)

AutoPen (Definitely)

AutoPen (Probably)

Forgery (Definitely)

Forgery (Probably)

Pre-Print (Definitely)

Pre-Print (Probably)

Secretarial (Definitely)

Secretarial (Probably)

Stamp (Definitely)

Stamp (Probably)

Unknown

We also categorize each item's received method:

In Person

Through the Mail

Purchase

Pulled from Pack

Trade/Gift

Other

Unknown

Also, I am not "selling" on my site - it is an "escrow" process.  So, we hold the money form the buyer and the title from the seller as a mutual third-party, and then present both parties with all the available evidence & allow enough time for the item to be sent, examined, authenticated, etc. and then when both parties agree to go ahead with the sell/purchase, then the transaction will be completed.   We don't have to "label someone as suspicious".  We just need to record all legitimate transactions and then present the evidence to both the seller and buyer so that they can make the informed decision as to buy/sell.

Since no other "system" currently seems to be working, please try this new system.  I also love this hobby and also would love to see all your items (with the story behind how you got them) to be registered so that everyone can enjoy them - but more importantly, your item will build provenance and can be used as exemplars for other collectors.

As I told Jay Burstein (see the first page of this discussion thread), please help by doing the following: (1) Register your in-person items, (2) Register known fakes and (3) Register your comments on the other people's items.

Thanks!

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on March 28, 2011 at 1:57pm

Richard,

All you can do is try what you want to do and see if it works. Anything you can do to keep as many people as possible from ending up with fakes--more power to you. Your efforts are applauded and appreciated.

Thank you!

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