Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DB on November 4, 2012 at 6:49am

since you won't see this; but nobody on either side of the ' pond ' has offered satisfactory proof that the autographs weren't genuine - Roger Epperson did and I don't suspect he is one to simply throw slings & arrows as an outrageous "expert'.  Maybe you should go back thru the earlier pages.  As far as other items cited they too are pretty good.

we were told by AFTAL that they had viewed video footage and could say that they were 100% certain that the Michael Jackson autographs in question were without doubt authentic.   Yet, it appears noone else nor did they show it at the show where it was 100% a guarantee it would be -nor- for that matter recipricated to the individual that called these out to begin with.

AFTAL instructed all its members to stay off it and remain silent. I'm glad to see you don't blindly follow orders but rather your own convictions as cenorship by a "club" is very dangerous especially as we have heard that threats have occurred.

After several weeks I contacted Garry King and asked him if in view of AFTAL's statement backing up their authenticity was I able to re-submit them onto my Website and was told to ' hang on for a few weeks whilst they made further investigation '. Hardly the response I expected following the unequivocal statement.   ...give me necessary support and advice and in my opinion they failed so drastically in their duties.   That would be my conclusion as the way it was handled from the outset has been abomidable and taints everyone involved regardless of the outcome.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on November 4, 2012 at 8:22am

Hungry American dogs? Attacks? Slings and arrows from outrageous experts? Blame AFTAL. Why blame concerned consumers? You should be blaming AFTAL. They could have quashed this firestorm days into the start of it. Secondary blame should be placed on the weak pawns(dealers) that got bullied into ignoring their conscience.

So what does meeting Nelson Mandela and Jimi Hendrix 45 years ago mean......that we should buy questionable MJ's from you? Consumers determine if a dealer is trustworthy...your padded resume does not. I bet Adrian has met some of these same people yet everyone is here focusing on his MJ's.

My opinion only Ken, and I am a nobody, but I believe you should have warned any potential buyers of those MJ scans you sent a week ago about the controversy surrounding them. Don't see if you stated you did this. Did you? . If you didn't and were still willing to sell them then I dont look at you as a victim.........whether you admit to it or not, you are part of the problem.

It's not an unsuspecting buyer fault that you have bills!

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on November 4, 2012 at 8:50am

I agree with both DB & Rick's posts.

The club mentality ( especially it's rules ) seriously screwed a LOT of people in this case.

Also, if, IF Garry King told you to keep them off your website, did anything else stated in that conversation lead you to believe that you could still sell these "off-line"?

I hope this awakens everyone to the dangers of letting a club ( especially a select group of DEALERS who have a monetary interest in the club's decisions ) speak for everyone else.

I am sick of the U.S. vs UK speak. That takes the attention away from the autographs and those who have an interest in calling them authentic.

Btw Ken, What are your professional opinions about the MJ signatures? I have to assume that you think they are authentic since you are still POSSIBLY selling them. Right?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on November 4, 2012 at 12:51pm

Ken,

  I'm sure you'll see this but I forgot to ask.

If AFTAL finally brushes the egg of their face and admit that these MJ's are probably not authentic will you and all the other AFTAL dealers notify the purchasers of these items and offer refunds? Could be a very significant amount of money. I'm guessing you all made a profit of somewhere between $800-$1,200 a pop.......guessing you probably only paid somewhere around $200-$250 each.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on November 4, 2012 at 1:52pm

Just noticed this reply from Mr Mills

I have a few things to say about this statement, and I must consider my response wisely

I will get back to a response tomorrow

Obviously he will not see my response,  but I still beleive in Santa Claus too

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on November 4, 2012 at 10:25am

Jason

chill buddy !

I think you have a story / thread against a US dealer and your not putting it accross correctly

With last weeks Hurricane etc, maybe you best let this lie for a week or so and let the American people get thru all the pain and stress at the moment with friends and relatives involved on the East Coast

Ok mate

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on November 4, 2012 at 2:26pm

Can anyone confirm that Ken Mills once distributed Adrian's stock before this Dominic Manning guy?

Just how many AFTAL dealers distributed this stuff? Not meaning those who were / are selling for retail, but thise delers who were / are actually distributing the items to other dealers?

Maybe the reason for the threats to other dealers is a consequence of too many people knowing the TRUTH about the whole process.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on November 5, 2012 at 11:19am

Brandon

Ken Mills has admitted that he bought from Adrian, and I beleive he has been supplied items from Adrian for over 10 years.

Adrian also supplied other Dealers in the UK, that I am positive of

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ken Mills on November 5, 2012 at 12:49am

Well Mr Harvey and others your Christmas wish has been granted. I have been informed of the type of response to my thread on this post and to be perfectly honest it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I do not have the time or the inclination to waste my life on a forum as I believe there are far more important things in life than autographs. I do not want other people standing up for me so I will address some of the points brought up but as I expect so many more negative threads to follow you will have to forgive me if I make this my last.
I can state here that I categorically have never ' distributed ' for anyone. I collected In Person from 1963 up to the early 1990's when I could see that the standard of ' collectors ' in the field had deteriorated and the emergence of Ebay and all its numerous fakes were killing it for me and the pleasure had gone out of it. What has meeting Nelson Mandela etc got to do with anything ? Over 40 odd years I have probably met and collected the autographs of more celebrities than the majority of people viewing this forum will ever meet. I have a personal collection of over 15,000 pieces and 95% of them were collected by me In Person so irrespective of what anyone else believes I know they are 100% genuine. What most people have failed to grasp is that Adrian Longden WAS probably the best In Person collector around for many many years. What has happened in reccent years has come as a huge shock to everyone who knows him. And yes Mr Harvey I believe it was your goodself who introduced Adrian to collecting within your circles in the U.S.A. or have I got that wrong ?
With all of my autograph knowledge and that of others in the U.K. who actually made income from authenticating autographs - we appear to have got it badly wrong and for that we do now have to hold our hands up. Extremely fortunately for me I have not sold any of the Michael Jackson signed photos I acquired from Adrian so am in the better position of not having to refund large sums of money as has been suggested. Believing them ( as AFTAL clearly did - and BTW I have not seen the video footage in question ) to be authentic because I trusted Adrian I put quite a high value on them and as a consequence didn't attract sales. Unlike some Dealers out to make a ' quick buck ' I have always until now felt like I was in it for the long haul so thought they would keep their value. I did view the images of Roger Epperson's scratchplates and as with others felt that his argument about MJ not writing one of his letters as high as normal didn't clear the matter up because the hole in the plate didn't allow MJ to write fully. Now I have noticed only too well on the earlier threads on this subject that Roger is seen as the new Messiah of authenticating. Having never heard of him because I never had my autograph stock subjected to authentication I looked him up on Google and found that like myself and others he has his fair share of detractors too. Like myself he is human, and can and has it seems made his share of mistakes so let's not kid ourselves that this problem is only confined to the U.K. On a happier note he did give a positive authentication on a set of Jimi Hendrix Experience and Pink Floyd autographs I sold to a collector in Sweden so I do accede he has a very good knowledge of Music autographs. Because I ceased to collect In Person after the mid 1990's I still recognised that the ' market ' and my customers still wanted autographs I hadn't got myself so as most Dealers do I bought from quite a number of sources who I believed to be reliable. I have bought a considerable amount from the likes of Jason Thanos and also Gary Harvey who whilst not being a full time collector himself, using other people to collect on his behalf in and around the London area as well as himself, I placed my trust in these people otherwise I couldn't offer the variety of autographs on my Website. Entertainment is a very small part of what I do as I have always been heavily involved in Soccer and most other Sports including doing many privately arranged paid signings.
For several years now I have looked after the Website and Merchandise of Kenny Baker ( R2D2 ) as well as writing his biography so am not the sort of person who is likely to want to jeopardise his reputation just for money. Unlike so many I have done this for the love of autographs and am by no means a wealthy man other than what I have tied up in signatures. This could go on and on and I am tired of feeling like I need to justify myself to people who will never use my Services anyway. You all have my word that no Michael Jackson autographs will be offered by me ever again except the one I have on my Website that was collected In Person when he was with the Jackson Five in the early 1970's. On reflection I should have listened more to the growing body of evidence but a ) I really didn't want to believe that somebody who had been a friend would do anything to harm my Business and b) I am just one of over 100 Dealers who are currently members of AFTAL and whether someone from the Board will actually admit they stuffed up big style I will put my neck on the block and state that in my opinion they let me down, all the other members down, and themselves. Quite clearly once this is read I won't be an AFTAL member much longer but I would always believe my reputation, despite what you guys think along with my integrity is still intact. As for offering MJ items through the back door as has been suggested just put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. If one of you were in a similar situation and theoretically someone like Roger Epperson had stated that something was ' without doubt ' 100% authentic although there was still an ongoing debate, would you have felt uneasy offering something for sale ? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

This is the point where I depart and you guys head to the nearest Quarry to grab handsful of stones lol.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on November 5, 2012 at 1:20am

Ken,

Congrats on standing up to AFTAL despite any consequence. As for if Roger Epperson said something was 100 percent good and their was an ongoing investigation on those particular items by a major autograph board, i know that I would most definetly hold off on buying those items. I dont sell items but if i did and was put in the same scenario i wouldnt sell them at all until the matter was resolved due to possible results down the road. I dont know anything about the situation of what you sold or didnt, i can only comment on what i would do in the situation.

It probably should also be noted that if you google Roger Epperson and forgeries or a term of that nature, what you will find is that his only real detractors are coming from ANL or AA. Each site consisting of a handful of members who do their best to smear legit dealers and collectors. They use many screen names and write unreal comments to try and discredit others. Yet when asked for proof they never can produce any. A good example was when their was a recent argument on this website between Epperson and another authenticator, and when that authenticator left the argument they stated that we could read the rest on ANL. Or that was my take on it, but its easily looked up. But since then apparently they have done nothing at ANL except write things about how horrible Epperson is. One such comment even stating he had a sex change. I highly doubt you will find extremely few, if any, negative reports concerning Epperson that dont originate from this same group of individuals. And thats not being all up Rogers butt either, its from just listening to other authorities in music and observing the items for myself. Those who specialize in music and its authentication all know of Epperson, and form what most say, he is the best in the world in music. And i dont think that title comes lightly. He makes mistakes, but on someone like MJ, who is so popular, i highly doubt it. Especially when given numerous examples from the same dealer at the same time. And from what was said, they really weren't even good forgeries to the trained eye.

But i do tip my hat for you to stating your views about AFTAL regardless of consequence or pressure. Good for you

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on November 5, 2012 at 1:41am

Carl I can vouch for your second part , It is true every person that stands up and defends the masses against the fakers will be involved in b******* chinese whispers and mostly all lies.

This is the problem and a very large one , This is why I feel sometimes that some posts should be deleted if it turns out that the person that has just joined to take a dig at steve, me , you or who evere else for a reason of maybe you shagged his wife or told on him for selling fakes , He decides its payback lets go on the forum that I dont need to give my name or show my face and act like a Samurai ...

As you guys have seen from the first day I joined on here I have actually used my real name and My photo is of my face, I know this is dangerous as the bad people can use it against me but this is the bloody bussiness I decided to be in the last decade so it is all my fault :-) , Hopefully I make a few good friends down the line like I have and the enemies will fade away into the darkness as there will always be on their own with no one to back them up..

Jason Thanos

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on November 5, 2012 at 1:48am

I think you have done a great job Jason and seem to be top knotch. You are also one of the ones who has been very vocal about AFTAL good or bad, and it takes some stones to stand up against the pressure to keep quiet. It speaks volume about what you represent.

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 48
• 49
• 50
• 51
• 52
• …
• 71
• Next ›
• Page