Ebay is not dangerous, not educating yourself is dangerous. There are thousands of authentic autographs on ebay, you just have to know your stuff. 

Really not that hard. Instead of complaining about ebay not being able to sift through millions of autographed items with an in house authenticator....educate yourself.

I'd argue ebay cares, I just dont think in reality there is a way to stop fake items. It;s part of doing business. These forgers prey on the naive. The key, then, would seem to me to not be naive.

+1 Xwiesy!

+2 Xw-

eBay DOES NOT CARE.

There were a number of people who were part of the EMR team. Enhanced member reporting. I was on it along with other people, known by all of you, who were well versed in fakes.

We were not paid by ebay. We did it for the good of the hobby. Nobody got any monetary reward for the work we did. We policed the site on our own time and were able to report, and have removed, bogus items. We reported to a man named John Gonzalez. We were able to remove many bogus items.

What happened??? eBay disbanded the EMR team and John Gonzalez no longer works there.

eBay DOES NOT CARE. We were stopping forgeries. Certainly not all of them but we were effective. At no cost to eBay. Then they stopped us. THEY DO NOT CARE.

yes! By college most people should be aware that world is full of crooks and it is up to you alone to figure out any deal you are in.  A thirty year old public  store is slightly different  though since one would expect any continuing fraud would be closed down by authorities. 

makes me wonder how many lawsiuts re fake signatures.  There's frank caiazza one in Fla, gotta have it nyc, dan in Vegas. Must be many more

There is no way to stop forgeries.

If it were about "caring" forgeries would never exist.

You participate in a hobby where you buy things where someone signs something that you don't see...you rely on your eye and what you know and the trust of the seller.

There is a guy on ebay who puts up Nirvana setlists every week, written by Kurt Cobain.

Sells them for $500.

I've somehow never been ripped off by him. 

I know what you are saying, ebay should run through listings and remove them, but they are always going to be behind the curve...stop one forger, another pops up. These folks do this for a living and short of handcuffing their hands to a table, they'll find a way.

You have to know what you are buying. It is the same in any business. Ebay would probably rely on the education of their customers than policing thousands of sellers...or getting sued by forgers because again, this hobby relies on handwriting samples.

If you are in this hobby, you HAVE to know- forgeries exist, most are so bad that a slight education can save you tons of $$$. So educate yourself instead of relying on Mother ebay to save you.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But this is something that is never going to go away. If you think the guys at Coach's Corner are going to go get a gig waiting tables...

Ebay does not care!!!

Of all the autographs sold, 80% of the purchasers do not know autographs.  

If Ebay cared, then why don't they enforce their own Banned COA List?

The majority of those who buy forgeries have this idea that Ebay filters out forgeries.

They do not.

Ebay does not care and no one will change my mind about that.

Does ebay got through and make sure every 1965 Mustang sold is completely original?

At some point, with collectibles, the buyer has to do some work.

It would be an awesome world where everybody told the truth, when we get to that point, let me know.

Xwiesy is right about one thing.  The forgeries will never stop.

I agree with you, Xwiesy, on some points.

The buyers of forgeries are half the problem.

Ebay had a team in place and hundreds of forgeries were being removed daily.

Then, in my opinion, they realized the amount of money they weren't making by removing those forgeries.

If you buy a Led Zeppelin signed Lp with John Bonham for $2500 is that ebay's fault or yours?

The way to get rid of forgers is education. And frankly, people are too lazy to do any work.

Why should we have a volunteer army removing listings...here let us save you from your own stupidity! Nobody should ever get ripped off, ever!

It's just not reality. 

Like I said- I wish we could put these places out of business...but this is what these people do...they pop back up like Freddy Krueger.

There will always be a market for easy money. 

What is simpler- shutting down a store in Caesar's Palace or just not shopping there?

She'd be back, under a new name, with the business in the name of a brother and she'd be there everyday peddling the crap. These folks ain't going to go honest. They just aren't.

Christopher- was it the money they were losing or other reasons?

Were they worried about getting sued? Were they worried that this volunteer group probably couldn't be experts on every single celebrity autograph? Were they worried about authenticator bias, which we see all the time in this hobby?

Ebay has enough money. I doubt 6 people in a room pulling forgeries was putting a dent in anything...

I don't mean to be flip- I want these folks put out of business, but I've been asking that for 30 years.

And I'll be asking that in another 30, God willing. Because the only way to not get ripped off is to buy smart and even then this hobby is dangerous.

This hobby ain't for the faint-hearted, that's for sure. Every collector should have 5 or 6 questions they ask themselves before pulling the trigger. Every. Time. 

I'm still going to expose them and rant about them.

I just can't sit on the sidelines and do nothing.

Chris, yes. Yes, you should.

You/We are part of educating people. We agree. 

I expect the only person who will look after my interest first...well, only I can prevent forest fires. I do think collectors have a responsibility. They are spending. I don't expect any other auction house to "save" me with art, coins...why this? When IS it a good idea to buy with another eye or to rely solely on papers/others opinions? Some folks I talk to just want "...is it real or not!?" and say "I don't care about that!" when speaking of the work, the why (or why not). You can't take a shortcut in my experience in any area of collecting. Well, you can, but everyone I know that has lost $ has taken those routes. Some folks will continue to make arguments for bad sellers, bad graphs, "certificates/stickers", bad "proof" photos that show nothing and unrealistic material. Some folks believe you can NEVER ever know unless you see it signed yourself. Others think you can buy $1200 items in broad daylight regularly for $19.50. 

If I had to condense everything - if I could say just one word to prospective buyers/collectors - I really want to say "self-education" but I am going to say GOOGLE

+3 Xw!

I agree with you, Goodcat. The victims aren't to blame.

Hindsight has 20/20. Dan is a champ for taking these people on and sticking with the claim as long as he did because yes, suing from Canada is harder! Oddly, the Defendants issued a press release after the settlement, vindicating themselves. Theirs is a slimy business, grounded in fake credibility and Dan got the closest yet to burning them!

My comment was general - not at Dan. Hindsight has nothing to do with someone thinking they are buying a signed Andy Warhol drawing for $18.75 in broad daylight and that type of delusion is often part of the problem. 

Led Zeppelin VI completely signed for $2500 including framing!

Sure, sue. Or do some homework...like 5 minutes of homework.

Antiquities issued a press release after they settled the case claiming they were vindicated, attached. 

Antiquities%20Odobas%20Press%20Release.pdf

Is there any truth to that, that the litigant now believes the items are authentic?

Or was that part of the settlement, that he had to say that?

Excellent question, Richard.

That guy let them rip him off and settled with them allowing them to say he thinks they are now authentic? Sold out. What a clown.

This is getting more bizarre by the moment.

According to the complaint, one of the Jimi Hendrix Experience "signed" albums is a reissue from 1979. Does he now believe that Hendrix rose from the grave to sign this album? What a joke.

Their business is built on their "credibility" so what do you think? Before you call somebody names, you should try walking a mile in their shoes. 

If anybody really really wants to put these people out of business... simply report them to the FTC here: 

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=251&am...

Once Antiquities are investigated, charges will follow. 

The way to get them is to have a court force them to give up their “sources.”

It will all come down...they dont have any.

I called the Las Vegas DA's office and they don't do "investigations". The police (i.e. local, FBI or the FTC) have to investigate and if they find evidence of a crime, they bring it to the DA's office to prosecute. At that point the DA will open a file and 80% of the time will file charges. I think the COA's, the sources... it will all come apart in about 5 minutes. 

Not sure how it could be done but forcing them to show where they get sigs would be the end of it...

If walking a mile in their shoes means wasting tens of thousands of dollars in forgeries first, I think I'll take a pass.

Selling out and agreeing with the crooks that you now think they are authentic is laughable. He basically just got a belated refund. What did any of his efforts do to help anyone? Nothing. BTW who cares what the opinion of the plaintiff is now? He did get duped pretty bad. Far from an autograph expert.

Just my two cents Michael. I have an opinion just like you do. 

I just wanted to respectfully respond to a previous comment from Xwiesy.

If you remember, Xwiesy, I wrote "Ebay is probably the most dangerous place to buy autographs for people who don't know autographs."

That's what I was referring to as "dangerous."  Those who do not know autographs.

If you know what you're doing and you have the knowledge, you can find some great deals on EBay.

Fair enough...I guess my point was that if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't be buying autographs.

Nice sellout...The buyer had these idiots right where they wanted and he sold everyone before and after him down the river, IMHO. He made no statement and now has to be squeak squeak mouse boy. LOLOLO. Zero respect in the end. The attorney had to be 50 K to chase down 10K and probably settled for half...In the end I think he is a dummy for buying the stuff and a dummy for settling with the caveat of keeping his mouth shut PERIOD, IMHO. For those scam artists to be able to put out a release like that is pure sickening and Michael your brother proved why he gets ripped off and the sellers are 1/2 the problem. A man that took a stand and then crapped out on the toilet. You can call me what ever you want but I'm like Howard Cosell... "Telling it like it is". A this is how they get away with it for 30 years. So funny it's side splitting.

The buyer probably got his money back plus attorney fees. The hobby lost. Sharks win!

I’d be surprised if many people believed that press release.

I’m just glad he got his $175,000 back. That’s a victory.

This quote from someone who said Antiquities sold him a fake Rolling Stones guitar puts it all in perspective:

“It had never occurred to me that a store that was positioned in such a high end mall with time honored stores such as Tiffany's, Prada, Coach, etc., would be suspect in their ethics but as it turned out, they sold me a fake.“

Fuddjacl and Rick Meyer; I respect your right to speak your mind, but I wish you'd be a little less harsh with your tone. You don't know me and I don't know you... and this is a community. Using troll / comment tactics to make your point isn't cool, nor does it prove (to me) that you're either tough guys or smart guys. Dial it down. 

The claim was for $175K not $10K and I happen to agree that with some more research Dan probably wouldn't have been scammed. He regrets not doing more due diligence but hindsight has 20/20. He isn't a sellout, he was under financial pressure and he needed to settle because he couldn't keep pumping money into a legal fight against people with more resources. The US tort system is heavily tilted towards those who have the most money. When I say "walk a mile" that's what I was talking about. 

Hope that clears things up. Let's focus on the thread which is Antiquities and not my Brother. 

The person I quoted wrote a detailed report on what happened to him:

https://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/antiquities-international/las-...

I can understand his desire to get his money back, but at the cost of his integrity?? Jimmy Spence and I were threatened with a lawsuit many years ago. The attorney for the "injured" (LOL) party said that if we both made a statement in support of forensic document examiners they would drop the lawsuit. We both refused to submit to that blackmail just to save the money and aggravation of a lawsuit. We would not compromise our beliefs for that. We refused and were sued. The suit was dropped eventually. The plaintiff got zero from us.

Michael, these are great points. If you sued someone for $175,000 and got a chance to settle or risk losing....

What would you do? Say ah the hell with it, I need to think about the people of AML?

Integrity lol

$175,000 (or whatever the settlement amount was) or my integrity.

Hmmm...

Hmmm or stand for something or stand for nothing AT ALL... I do see your points however As I read the complaint it was 10K worth of garbage that he is now calling real!!!! LOL If you have money for the attorney in a case like that, you take it to the mat. Was this 175K or 10K? And no, I'm not trying to do anything for AML or really care what anyone thinks. If I'm so dumb to be in that position to have to take legal ACTION, I'm taking it to the end Period. Despite the risks or costs. Otherwise, I don't even start the action. If I have to start something like that, I guarantee you I finish it, or die trying caue I actually stand for something and no need to get weak knees at the end. That's just me. I actually stand up for what's right (In my pea sized brain anyway). Very rarely do I have to use the legal system, but when I do, I'm not letting my foot off the gas like that. In any scenario. Being able to make a statement that "I now agree the autographs are all legitimate" LOLOLOLOLO and now I'm little Bo Peep...sorry aint happening here. too funny. What a joker. LOLOOL 

I think his first case is to take care of himself.

If you want to sue for integrity's sake, go buy $100,000 from the Vegas folks and then sue, and we'll all cheer you on.

Say what you want, Jimmy Spence and I chose integrity, knowing we were facing an expensive lawsuit. We would not sell out our integrity.

True, it was not $175K but we knew it would be expensive but we had to stand by our beliefs.

Michael, you state your brother was under financial pressure and needed to get his $175K back. If he was under financial pressure then how could he possibly justify spending $175K on those items in the first place, even if they were real.  People under financial pressure do not spend $175K on frivolous items, even if they are authentic (and let's face it, autographs are frivolous). Like I said early on in this thread, some guys have too much money.

The financial pressure is the $400-500/hour a good lawyer costs, plus experts. Daniel Odobas's only battle was to get his money back. 

Why doesn't the autograph industry do more to protect collectors from forgeries? Epperson is one of the only active TPAs who speaks out, and is willing to be an expert witness. With rare exception, dealers, auction houses and TPAs don't want to get their hands dirty. 

If the industry was more active in protecting collectors, far fewer would get burned.

Why do so many people shame the victims when the industry stands idly by while forgery sellers pee in their pool?