Unfortunately, the hobby overall is too loosely knit. There needs to be an organization that has enough members and financial clout to fight these organized criminal enterprises straight up. And law enforcement willing to throw some of these folks into prison. It's a dirty business.

The industry needs to focus more on education and less on eliminating forgers, because you are never going to eliminate forgers. 

If Vegas closed down, that would be it? Problem solved?

That lady isn't going to be a swimming pool installer....it's Freddy Krueger, man. Back from the dead, over and over and over. 

Vegas is a drop in the bucket.

The education is available. That comes down to the buyer. 

Right!

There are thousands of them.

The industry is going to have a hard time policing itself when the people with the money can file endless lawsuits because let's face it, when you are signing photos and guitars yourself, your costs are minimal.

I'd love to the see the shop in Vegas' tax returns, because that would tell you a lot about who is doing what.

The attorney in the case should have asked for a paper trail for the items that are now "authentic." Make the seller show how they got the items.

There is too much money in the "Forgery Industry" for it to go away.

Richard,

I don’t think Antiquities or the other defendants filed a response to the lawsuit. I never saw one filed at least. It looks like it immediately went into settlement negotiations. If discovery was served I’m sure it wasn’t responded to. 

I’m not a collector. I was trying to be helpful to the autograph community by providing context about my Brother’s lawsuit against Antiquities and Co. There have been many thoughtful comments on this thread, but also a few (predictable) people victim-blaming or enjoying schadenfreude, at the expense of a wealthy victim, while lauding their own integrity. Thanks for the experience! Good luck everybody!

Michael

Don't let tuff talkn bozo's rattle you. It takes guts to up against a big company and put up more big bucks (on top of the already buying investments). Your brother is not an idiot or a "sell-out". These are obvious good crafted forgeries he bought and would take more than 5 minutes of study to identify them as such. The people who say this are the type of people that can't even positively identify signatures themselves. The people who are slamming your brother are missing the true nature of this thread. Your brother sued and WON... that is all that matters and hopefully did some serious damage to Antiquities reputation.

Congratulations!!!

I was also a sucker that made a purchase from Antiquities, here's the link - https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/is-this-marilyn-mon...

I believe the solution to help put Antiquities out of business is to publicize and inform other unsuspecting consumers regarding the scams this business is perpetrating. Since my encounter with Antiquities I have been trying to warn others about Antiquities through Google, Yelp, Facebook, etc. The problem is over the many years Antiquities has been in business of deception and lies, they have educated themselves on how to remove my statements and others from the Internet. It's very difficult to write a bad review or comment about Antiquities without it removed within a week or two. Toby has an A+ BBB rating! She must of paid them off too.

Its true education is key to know who you're dealing with. Toby Stoffa and her company have been ripping off the public for years, but her positive reviews are deceitful lies written by her employees and friends to help her business look better than it is. If you don't believe me trying writing a negative review about Antiquities, and see if it sticks.

+1 Goodcat

and for the record Michael, I do not necessarily disagree with anyone's opinion in the last few days. All points are clearly valid. I just have my opinions on how I live my life. I take it we are talking about 175 K and not 10K so that changes a little. spending that much and not being able to afford to see it through and getting me to eat my words would not happen to me in any case.
I'm sure you know that by now. LOL For the record, I am currently practicing what I preach with the Gas Company. I can assure you, I aint signing nuttin that says I have to stay quiet or say "there was NO gas Leak" or be Mumbles Magilicuty...for a million cronkites I won't sign that. ever never ever.

This quote by Daniel in the Antiquities press release is one I certainly agree with:

...“in my view Antiquities did not purposely do anything outside the course of its customary and ordinary business respecting the authenticity of the Memorabilia or otherwise.”

:), good one Steve.

I agree that we shouldn't blame the victim, but only up to a certain point. I can understand someone ending up with something on the order of a fake Rolling Stones signed guitar. Everything's in place for that to happen. What seems unusual is someone purchasing what would amount to a museum of rock and roll history for a large amount of money, but a small fraction of the value of the items had they been authentic.

Education is the BIGGEST key. You will never eliminate all forgers. You can't. There is too much money involved from buying, selling, authentticating etc... 

There are just not enough people willing to do the research needed before they make a purchase. I don't even necessarily mean buy things with PSA, JSA, Epperson. I mean take the time to study the graph. Get to know the signing style. 

Whether they are gifts or people with their head in the clouds, these new collectors fall into a trap. Don't trust every story thrown at you and just because someone has a homemade coa it doesn't make it real. 

I am not victim blaming, because these people are criminals. They should be locked away, but we have to hold ourselves accountable for our own mistakes to learn from our mistakes. 

Unfortunately, and I've stated this dozens of times, 80% of the autographs sold are purchased by either the casual collector (who has no desire to learn autographs and thinks that a piece of paper called a COA is the end-all) and impulse buyers.

Those two groups will never do research on the autographs they are interested in owning.

And as for Mr. Odobas I can't fault him for accepting the settlement to get his money back.

I too, think it's extremely important not to victim-blame, especially when it's those people who need our help the most. Antiquities and other "stores" like this, just LOVE it when we squabble amongst ourselves. Makes us look bush league. petty and childish.

It's not about the actual dollar value, a grand to some of us is half a mortgage payment, and to others it's pocket change. Neither here nor there. This guy was taken by a criminal enterprise, plain and simple. And while I'm not a fan of him signing a document doing a complete 180, it was his choice to do so, and also let's not forget, it's a small potatoes press release that probably no one saw. I mean, this all happened months ago, and we're only talking about it now!

I haven't been to the store in LV (though I may try this weekend, as I'm heading out there for the hockey game on Sunday, but knowing how many high end stores are in these Vegas hotels, I can't blame someone for putting faith in that fact alone. You walk into Best Buy, you expect quality, name-brand merch, and if they for some reason were caught selling gray-market goods, we wouldn't blame the buyer for that.

Facts matter. Much like Chris Williams and his WONDERFUL blog on GFA, if we ever wanna take these big boys down, we need to figure out an organized, scientific, and most importantly - unified - front against them. They bank on the fact that questions of authenticity often come down opinions, but we can gain the upper hand if we use the facts we have to our advantage.

But again, most importantly - and though I do understand the anger - we can't blame those who get taken by these guys. They're the ones that need our help the most, and if they get harangued when turning to AML for assistance, it only makes the good guys look like internet crazies, of which I know the participants in this thread are not.

oh, and also on the press release front, it's pretty obvious that his "quotes" weren't actually his words, but something THEY wrote, and made him sign his name to in order to get his money back. I know we all have our integrity, but if someone said to me that I needed to sign off on that quote in order to get SIX FIGURES worth of money back, I know I would be hard pressed to say no. All that dude wanted was his money back, he never set out to bring these big boys down, and he never aligned himself with our fight. Plus, his "opinion" on the authenticity of the items doesn't ever matter in the grand scheme of things, and like I said, the verbiage was pretty obviously not coming from his mouth. 

That was well-written, Jason.

The Federal Trade Commission investigates criminal fraud and they have a link on their website to report criminal fraud.  

If a few dozen people reported what's going on and named the parties involved (they are all in the complaint which Steve posted a couple of days ago) that would get the ball rolling. They are fleecing people out of millions of dollars per month! 

AtAuction/Always at Auction sold obviously fake baseball and other sports autographs by the thousands to military personnel, their families, and veterans through military exchanges.

I don't think anyone feels that the exchange victims are to blame for buying them.

What makes buyers like Daniel different?

I don't blame the "victims". Criminals have always taken advantage of the weak,ill informed, innocents etc. Housewives,Grandparents picking something up for their loved ones. Now I wish a light would shine on a little business called Coaches Corner!

Exactly Jason Charnick

I was thinking same same. No way I'd turn down the cash.... I be like show me da money and where do I sign, because my authenticity opinion means ZERO. And the fact they paid out, is an admittance of guilt anyway. 

Michael, I may have been a little rough on your brother and I apologize. I am glad he got his money back. Very few ever do so that in itself is a win. I think when this came here I looked at it as a guy taking them to the woodshed for the betterment of the hobby and should have realized it was just for the refund. I know it isn't easy sticking your neck out against big forgery rings and places like Antiquities. Takes bucks and balls to take it that far I'll give him that. 

Granted I was not in his shoes nor am I a filthy rich guy. I despise the forgery industry so to get me to admit something I know is a forgery or allow others to use my name in a quote as an authentication is not in my DNA. Not everyone thinks like I do and some times it bugs the hell out me. I've been in a position where I could have been bribed by a few bucks from a large forgery ring and I refused. Mostly so I could use the experience to be a pain in the a$$ and troll them which I did. I still do on occasion when I can. Pestering forgery sellers is half the fun of the hobby for me.

Rick and I share some of the same hobby DNA when it comes to forgeries.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the clarification. Things run a little differently in Canada so the fact Antiquities is allowed to operate irks me. Up here they're pretty brutal on criminal fraud.  

I think it is important to victim blame to some extent. That's why it's so maddening because when you make a blunder of biblical proportions like this, you have to look in the mirror and blame yourself.

When I buy stocks, do I research the stock? Do I subscribe to Morningstar? To Barrons? YES. Do I treat the Market like a casino and buy because CNBC tells me so? No, I do some research and move forward after I learn everything I can. There is culpability for the dopey buyers. How about you do 5 minutes of research before you spend 750K....Very dopey, IMHO. This is one reason why I do not collect Autographs any longer and have moved on to fake cars, fake stocks and fake $100 bills. It's a very dopey business/hobby and very dopey dopes are ripe for the pickens. Dopes are woven through-out the fabric of America and that ain't changin' anytime soon. No disrespect for anyones opinions, I just live my life a little different and I would blame myself 100% for this if it happened to me. That would be where my anger would come from being mad at myself and I'm not letting that go once I start to legal game. Like I said, when I start, I finish PERIOD and I don't care about the money honestly. I guess I place too high an emphasis on Principal for my opinion to be accepted? But you know by now, FUDD CARES NOT. LOL

Jason, I agree 100%. If everyone who posted here united a dent can be made in forgeries. Chris is right on impulse and common collectors. However, they need protected also. There is no room server to say that the victim should share blame. EVER!!!

I hope one day that I can say I have contributed as much as ones on this post. Stay the course everyone. Sun Tsu  said divide and you will conquer as well as the battle is won in the planning stages. It is time for a cohesive front.

In this case I do not blame the victim for settling. Who would not want the money back. 

If there is life lesson I have come to learn well. You cannot protect a person from themselves. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

Many don't know Fudd from years ago—LOOONNGGGG ago, he's even older than me—but he's a good guy and has been an asset to baseball autograph field. He stopped collecting because he got fed up with the rampant forgeries. Even though he wasn't buying them, that so many people were and little was being one about it got to him.

Am I recalling it right, Fudd?

He's a major Mickey Mantle collector, and published a blog here with Mantle exemplars in 2011 that has 55 pages of discussion:

https://live.autographmagazine.com/profiles/blogs/mickey-mantle-aut...

Fudd is Fudd—that ain't gonna change—and a really good guy, even when he makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

Thanks for explaining Steve and I'll just have to take your word on that.

But I'm still not giving him a pass. 

I hate bullies and I hate ignorant nonsense. And that ain't gonna change either.

So I guess we'll just call it a stale mate and move on. 

I reviewed Daniel Odobas's lawsuit against Antiquities, GFA and AAU last night. It said that Odobas bought 33 autographed items from Antiquities for a total of $171,900. I'll list the pieces shortly.

It said that Odobas contacted several well-known auction houses and other authorities in the music memorabilia field to gauge their interest in buying the Suspect items.

It said that he received information from the auction houses and authorities in the field that they believed the items he purchased from Antiquities were not authentic, and that they had no desire to purchase them.

It said Odobas then hired JSA to inspect them, and that they determined that 32 of the autographed items were not authentic, but one, the Stevie Ray Vaughan signed contract, was inconclusive.

Fair enough, Goodcat.

These are the 33 items that Antiquities sold Odobas for $171,900, according to the lawsuit:

1. Jimi Hendrix handwritten and signed lyrics to Stepping Stone (AAU COA)
2. Electric Ladyland LP signed by Jimi Hendrix, Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell. According to the lawsuit, this was actually a 1979 rerelease of the album; Hendrix died in 1970. (AAU COA)
3. Axis: Bold as Love LP signed by Jimi Hendrix, Noel Redding and Mitch Mitchell (AAU COA)
4. Texas Flood LP signed by Stevie Ray Vaughan, Chris Layton and Tommy Shannon (AAU COA)
5. Jimi Hendrix signed vintage 1960s tie dye dress (AAU COA)
6. Stevie Ray Vaughan signed GHS contract dated Nov. 9, 1986 (Antiquities COA only)
7. Jimi Hendrix handwritten and signed lyrics to Rainy Day (Antiquities COA only)
8. Morrison Hotel LP signed by Jim Morrison, Ray Manzarek, Robbie Kreiger and John Densmore (Antiquities COA only)
9. The Doors debut LP signed by Jim Morrison, Ray Manzarek, Robbie Kreiger and John Densmore (AAU COA)
10. John Lennon large, hand drawn and signed sketch of himself and Yoko in a loving embrace (GFA COA)
11. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to I Saw Her Standing There (GFA COA)
12. George Harrison handwritten and signed lyrics to Here Comes the Sun (AAU COA)
13. Jim Morrison handwritten and signed lyrics to LA Woman  (AAU COA)
14. LA Woman LP signed by Jim Morrison, Ray Manzarek, Robbie Kreiger and John Densmore (AAU COA)
15. Jim Morrison handwritten and signed lyrics to Light My Fire (AAU COA)
16. 2 pages of Michael Jackson handwritten and signed lyrics to Billie Jean (AAU COA)
17. Jimi Hendrix handwritten and signed full page of lyrics to Are You Experienced?
18. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to Come Together (AAU COA)
19. Jim Morrison handwritten and signed lyrics to People are Strange (AAU COA)
20. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to Hey Jude (GFA COA)
21. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to Penny Lane (GFA COA)
22. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to Ticket to Ride (GFA COA)
23. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to Love Me Do (GFA COA)
24. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to I Want to Hold Your Hand (GFA COA)
25. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to Twist and Shout (GFA COA)
26. Elvis Presley handwritten and signed lyrics to Love Me Tender (GFA COA)
27. Jimi Hendrix handwritten and signed lyrics to Manic Depression (GFA COA)
28. Jimi Hendrix handwritten and signed lyrics to Purple Haze (GFA COA)
29. Elvis Presley handwritten and signed lyrics to Don't Be Cruel (AAU COA)
30. Jim Morrison handwritten and signed lyrics to Break on Through (AAU COA)
31. John Lennon signed color sketch of his "famous Lennon face" (GFA COA)
32. Jimi Hendrix handwritten and signed lyrics to I Don't Live Today (GFA COA)
33. John Lennon handwritten and signed lyrics to A Hard Day's Night (GFA COA)

and you are correct Steve. Stopped collecting and quit E-bay because I stand for something.  When E-bay jumped the shark, I decided to cancel my account and stop buying anymore autographs. I still enjoy following the latest stories here and do what I can to help people smoke out forgeries. It's a known FACT that collectors are stupid as ever right now and that cannot be disputed.

No doubt about it...I need to pad my wall. 

and Goodcat ....Please donate to Steve's LEGAL Fund today. You have donated right? Mr big Canadian autograph guy.  I I will gladly double anything you send today...Go ahead arrogant mouth boy. Put your Worthless Canadian $$$ where your big yapper pie whole is.

Thanks, Fudd. I need to make clear that the legal fund had been going to attorney advice and planned court expenses. I’ve gotten generous contributions but not enough to hire an attorney.

OMG, Goodcat, a $100,000 donation?

I feel for you Steve, I have been through it three times.

Defendant twice and plaintiff once.

I beat them every time.

The truth can win out, sometimes.

Great. In one breath we say that casual collectors need to do their research, and in the next, they’re being called stupid. So when they do decide to do research and come here for help, they see us call each other names and argue amongst ourselves like little children. So if you’re a casual collector, who would you trust: the store who’s been in the same location amongst other world renowned stores for 30 years, or the strangers on the internet who bicker like babies? People wil NEVER know we are the good guys when ish like this keeps happening. I get all sides, really I do, and I value everyone’s opinion on this thread, but big picture guys... big picture. 

If Odobas had done research and come here for help, the outcome would have been different.

Yes Richard. Exactly right. This guy was not a rocket scientist, brain surgeon or autograph collector. While i genuinely feel sorry for the guy and respect the hell out of him for fighting back, i'm sure if you ask him, he will tell you he was a complete dummy. Is that really in question or are we too politically correct to address it?

Is it possible that he bought all this crap thinking he was going to make a big score? Did he buy these thinking I am getting a steal and I am gonna auction them off with big auction houses and make a killing? Or did he buy them because of a love for rock n roll and hang them on his walls for a period of time and then decide to part with some of them? No accusation here, I just would like to know.

He bought them because he was a greedy slob and the prices were "too good to be true". He must not have heard that line we heard 50 years ago. "if it's too good to be true it usually is"... FIRST RED FLAG of many many many flags on the play. To think to buyer has no culpability is just plain foolhardy. It would be nice if that wasn't the case and we can blame only the scam artists but unfortunately that's not the world we live in today. It takes two to tango. I like to trust people too, but where $$$ is concerned I don't take anything to chance like that.  Sorry this seems as if I'm jumping his S***, but he has shared fault in the situation and if Badcat doest like my opinion, shut me up by donating to the legal fund already. Eddie Big talker 

Fudd,

Thanks, but contributing to the fund isn’t an obligation in any way, and I don’t want  people being shamed into it.

Thank you tho...you are a good, long time friend. 

looking at the list of items, why would John Lennon handwrite lyrics to McCartney songs?  Am I missing something here?

It almost appears as though some of this stuff was made to order. My favorite Beatles song is Penny Lane, and my favorite Beatle is John. I'd also like some Jim Morrison handwritten lyrics. My favorite Doors song is Light My Fire (primarily written by Krieger). I'd also like a few fully-signed Doors albums, but no duplicates please.