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Authenticity is Everything
AFTAL Steering Committee Statement on Michael Jackson Autographs
The much awaited meeting of the new temporary AFTAL steering committee took place in Coventry on the 3rd January 2013 with the primary objective of addressing the much written about subject of Michael Jackson autographs. The committee is made up of 7 people, 2 of which are not AFTAL dealers. The former board members which included Dominic Manning stood down in order that Garry King and a new committee could then look at things afresh in an effort to resolve the ongoing problem. This new committee has been given free reign to look into and resolve the situation, and is totally free to decide how AFTAL shall move forward.
These alleged fake Michael Jackson signed items were first spotted by some people on a US forum, and quickly linked to Dominic Manning of Behind the Scenes. It was alleged that Dominic had sold hundreds of these to UK dealers via the AFTAL network. It was also suggested that Dominic had sold them as ‘in person’ signatures shortly after MJ’s passing, and had possibly sold hundreds.
It was also quickly established that the MJ’s in question had in fact been mainly purchased from another collector, Adrian Longden, who is well known amongst some US and UK in person collectors.
Adrian is not now, and never has been an AFTAL dealer, so we have very little control over whether he helps out in this matter or not, but we can confirm that he was willing to make a statement for us and spent time being interviewed by well known solicitor advocate Magnus Boyd at his London office.
After a great deal of discussion between all parties, it transpired that Adrian claimed to have obtained around 350 signed images/CD and LP covers during time spent mainly in LA.
Adrian was happy to discuss this with Magnus Boyd who AFTAL employed to both consider action because of the possible libellous accusations being made against AFTAL and its dealers, and in an effort to get an independent opinion of Adrian’s story.
Magnus Boyd confirmed to us that Adrian had confirmed to him via his witness statement that he spent a lot of time in the USA obtaining autographs, and that he believed the MJ items amounted to around 350 in total but that he did not get all of these himself in person, but rather used others, or the items were handed in to staff to be signed and collected later.
These collected items he then sold directly to various dealers and collectors both in the USA and the UK.
Adrian has given us what he considers to be an accurate breakdown of the items he sold and Magnus also considers that in his opinion his statement was both honest and truthful. Magnus also states “by putting this information in a witness statement and signing a statement of truth he was placing himself in a position where, if that statement was used in any subsequent court proceedings and Adrian was found to have been dishonest, he would be in contempt of court. Adrian’s awareness of this last point led him to take considerable care to ensure his statement was accurate.”
We still need to get accurate figures from Dominic Manning as to the number he sold here in the UK, but we expect to have this soon. We are also unsure of the exact number that Dominic obtained in person either here or in the USA, but so far it seems the number will be less than 15.
Whilst we all were very much aware that only one definitive answer and decision was only ever going to be popular and acceptable, we all went into the meeting with a totally open mind, determined to bring this matter to a conclusion, as there are many other matters also requiring our attention.
We began by viewing all the M.J. stock I ( Ken Mills ) had purchased directly from Adrian Longden, items Garry King had obtained from Dominic Manning and countless other examples of known 100% genuine ones including one I obtained myself personally in the late 1990's.
We also had quite a number of examples of MJ autographs which Roger Epperson had authenticated for R & R plus many other examples from other sources, all of which we had been very careful to include.
On viewing these many examples it was clear there were at least two variations of Michael's signature where the 'J' in Jackson either came down in more or less a straight line, or where he continued the line round into a looped 'J'.
On viewing known genuine examples it appears that both variations were used by him at different times. Some of the signed photos we have compared favourably with ones authenticated by Roger, and out of 20 examples only 2 did not make a decent match. We came to the conclusion on the day, that despite our vast combined knowledge it was almost impossible to split the autographs into two separate piles of 'genuine' and 'fake'.
Each time we thought we could see some light at the end of the tunnel someone would then point out something else that could then change our view.
Garry King had made a suggestion shortly after all this started, that it was a well documented medical fact that the use of certain drugs could affect that way in which you sign your name, and with the amounts and types of medication Michael was taking at that time this certainly seems feasible. But that suggestion was not accepted in certain quarters too well, but as we all know, if drink can affect you’re driving and certainly your handwriting then why not drugs? Surely this is something that should be considered?
Jason Thanos who is widely regarded as one of the top and most trusted In Person collectors worldwide, then suggested we view the backs of the photos to see if there was anything that might help us including dates, print numbers etc.This only showed us a letter in the corner of some which suggests they were ones taken into the house and other places. Some had the letter 'A' for Adrian in the top corners, which does suggest that those items were possibly the ones that had been taken into a house or elsewhere to be signed and then returned later, although what we don't know is 'who actually signed them behind closed doors'.
This tends to confirm that certain items were handed into the house Michael Jackson was using, or a member of his entourage took them in to be signed and then handed back later. It is possible that these items were then signed by another hand and therefore not obtained ‘ In Person ‘ and should not have been offered for sale as such.
It has been long established that certain stars have used a secretary for signing their fan-mail etc although this has not been widely discussed before in respect of Michael Jackson, but is this what was happening ?
If anyone in the U.S. can assist us with a possible contact either at Michael's Estate or who would be likely to help shed some light on Michael's signing habits during his last few months then please let me know and I will contact them.
Our conclusion was that it would be wrong to come to any decision on that day as we obviously needed both more time and more evidence, and we are currently making every effort to do this.
We viewed the infamous DVD which is in no way conclusive and is more of a film record of collectors specifically chasing Michael Jackson for autographs.
It does however prove beyond all doubt that Adrian Longden was in Los Angeles during the 3 month period before MJ's death, and had dialogue on a one to one basis with both MJ and his entourage as did a number of other collectors.
The numbers obtained during that period and how they were obtained became the subject of our next investigation and many AFTAL Dealers were phoned in an attempt to get numbers purchased and from where so we could more accurately examine the scale.
The DVD showed us that due to Michael's generous nature, on a number of occasions as many as 20/30 items were taken into various locations at Michael's request and brought out later with a signature on them. This confirms that there is a distinct possibility that those items were not signed by M.J. himself but by someone on his behalf.
In addition, an article in the Autograph Collector Magazine (Jan 2010) confirmed that he had become a very generous signer. “Jackson was always a generous signer and probably signed well over 100,000 autographs over his career, but in the last months of his life he took it to a new level”. “He was signing like a madman in L.A. and Las Vegas since October,” Epperson said. “If you caught him leaving tour rehearsals at Staples Center you could hand him 50 things and he’d sign them all.”
A professional collector reported, “It was the best kept secret among the pros. They really exploited the guy. Some got hundreds of items signed. They’re selling them now for $1,000-$2,000 each.
“Jackson was a sweetheart. You could knock on his limo window and hand things to his driver and Jackson would sign them in the car. These guys were handing him boxes of stuff.”
All of that of course only goes to prove that MJ did indeed sign many hundreds of items in the months leading up to his death contrary to what many had said on the forums, and we have had this confirmed by a number of other people, who have also confirmed that Adrian as well as others obtained considerable numbers of signed M.J. items during this time.
If anyone else has any categoric evidence to prove that Adrian Longden or anyone else known to him might have faked MJ's autograph, and is prepared to come forward and enlighten us, then we will be very pleased to hear from them. But in the meantime we can only surmise that the quantity that seems to be involved was more than possible to obtain.
In conclusion, we all had roughly a 500 mile round trip and spent a good 7 hours in total viewing and discussing this matter. We all felt that as a group we are neither qualified enough, nor have enough information at this time to make the decision most people had hoped for. We have listed many things we still need to do in order to continue our investigations, and have already made a start on these.
Anyone who thinks we have tried to cover up any matter relating to this investigation is perfectly entitled to their opinion, but I can assure you they could not be more wrong.
In a lot of ways it was frustrating not to have left the meeting with any solid conclusion, but all of those on the committee now know that it isn't quite as cut and dried as a lot of people had imagined.
Further meetings and investigations will continue in order to try and arrive at the truth, and we will of course keep everyone informed as and when we have something to report. I would reiterate that if anyone has any information not previously reported or supplied then we would all be glad to hear from you and your information will be dealt with in the strictest of confidence.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on
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Ken, thank you for coming out and proving my opinions of your little "boys" club correct. This "statement" is the most disgusting group of meaningless words that I have ever seen. it's obvious that his Garry is still trying to cover this up, it also appears that he is going to let his little boys club write history. No shock here for me.
What IS amazing to me is how little effort went into looking at the actual signatures. Instead, you spent time getting Adrian's "promise that he was in America and met MJ ( even though everyone already knew he had been to America and obtained MJ signatures ). You also spent time looking at the "backs of he items"?????? I know you realize that the "A" could have been placed there after the signatures ( heck, it could have been done at your little board meeting). Instead, it's another AFTAL excuse to say that these items may be real.
This whole statement is nothing more than a way to distract and hope that people forget over time. While your "members" have nobody to trust.
Btw, let Garry King know that everyone is still waiting on his answer as to how such an "expert" who has attacked other dealers in the U.K. Was selling so many bad items ( Eastwood, McCartney, MJ, Heston,and the Harrison Fords ).
The MJ group here needs to look at the Adrian's Jackson stock. Especially since the "new" AFTAL is showing that they have no plans of focusing on the actual autographs.
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Permalink Reply by Ken Mills on
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Brandon - I intend to treat your comments with the contempt they deserve. Having suffered two close family bereavements since New Year's Day I'm not even going to justify to people like you who don't know just how much work time and effort has been extended and I have a far more important set of priorities to attend to at this difficult time for me personally. If any of the other committee members wish to engage in a meaningless dialogue with closed minded people such as yourself then they are more than welcome to try.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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Ken,
I didn't expect to hear from you for a while, considering the losses you're dealing with that Jason told me about the other day. Please accept my condolences. To deal with your personal grief while having to be strong for other members of your family has to be incredibly hard.
Brandon does not speak for all of us here, and hopefully not for anyone else.
If I may suggest, ask Jason, Garry or another board member to take over here at this time. You don't need to deal with this, too.
Take care.
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I agree with you Brandon! This took months of debate between the members? This statement said nothing but maybe if we delay our finding this will all go away and we wont be out any money. What a joke!!
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Ken, do yourself a favor and save your time. The actions of the "committee" are speaking for you. So, don't even reply.
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Permalink Reply by Jason Thanos on
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Brandon am sorry you feel it is a boys club as the majority of the people that have come on board including me have nothing to gain out of this but only head ache. I was asked by so many people inc a lot of people on AML to help and I did by allowing myself to be part of this current line up only to try and help the matter.
Mark only is a collector has nothing to do anything else but that has no ties to any board members previous or current I for one never ever heard of him till his name was brought up.
Bob only sells sport and to be honest sells Liverpool FC he is one of the straightest people out there by a long shot he is known in UK for his hard work towards forgers and has nothing to do with any music or showbiz autographs at all just came to help.
Andy another person who has never had any jackos or macca s that has no ties with neeither Adi or Dom apart from everyone knows each other as it is all in UK.
Now 4 people already out fo the 7 are the majority , So am afraid it is not a corrupt one buddy and I promise you it is not. Also so you know there are many more steps that have been taken but can not be exposed yet as there is one or two things waiting to happen before the full scale exposure of the actions of this comitee.
I went in there and I thought this will be a very simple straight forward job gonna get a bunch of genuine autographs put them next to each other look em with mag glass with rulers etc .
Trust me I had spend 90 minutes on my own going through this gear before anyone else, And the only 2 things I saw was that some had the A and that there was 2 patterns of signatures as suggested above.
But then we found out that yes he did have 2 different styles that he signed in.
And to be honest and this is me talking not the board I found only 2 in twenty to be odd so the greater majority was identical to some of the ones on RR and Roger confirmed genuine ones.
Now listen am not a Jacko expert and never claimed to be but what I saw is what I tell you , and I swear on my life it is the truth , I dont want to mess about or make up crap as this is how it went.
I can also 100% guarantee you even though it was a the comitee or the majority that would rule at the end of the day not one person forced me to think or to act in any way.
To be honest everyone wanted to come out with a 100% result. This statement has taken a week to draft simply because 7 people have to agree to this , its not one person doing it and putting it out , I can 100% guarantee you that there are sections written on there from every one on the board as they all chipped in with their ideas.
This comitee found many bad things and to which they are gonna put a stop to them but it will be in the next 2 weeks or so as many things need to be sorted first as we dont have all the AFTAL keys to the palace.
Now let me ask you guys this and be honest but also state or explain your answer or demand.
Do you not want aftal to exist and try and help the cause as they have done on a number of times but this time with better people at the top that can help out and are respected ?
If not , Then I take it you are saying let the fakers roam the sites and ebay freely screw all the dealers or buyers that need help from time to time ..
Guys am serious I would not in a billion years have come on hear now or accepted to join the other 6 if I knew that they will be nothing good coming out of it..
Jason
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Permalink Reply by Robert McCluskey on
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Then please allow me to reply, Brandon.
About myself. I am primarily a dealer in Liverpool FC memorabilia and came into this "business" simply because I was fed up of seeing LFC collectors being sold fakes on eBay. I sell exclusively Liverpool FC memorabilia and whilst I have zero interest in carrying any other kind of stock, I do have a passion for fair play and try and use my knowledge / expertise in helping others avoid fakes, whatever their genre.
I am co-founder of The Boys Pen - not sure if I can provide links, but it is easy to google - which is the only dedicated LFC memorabilia forum on the internet, created to promote genuine sellers of LFC memorabilia, expose fakes on eBay and other sites and provide an open, uncensored venue for both collectors and dealers to work together.
My trading name is Retro Reds Memorabilia and I am also a moderator on the ACAF forum - Autograph Collectors Against Fakes. I have worked with UK Trading standards, the Police and BBC TV in the past and believe I have a consistent record for putting the collectors interests above dealers at all times.
I am not an AFTAL dealer, though I did receive an award from them a few years ago for my work in fighting the fakers, something that I am very vocal about and is well documented. I was asked to join the steering committee to look at the Michael Jackson issue in particular and after careful consideration, thought I should take that opportunity so I could be certain that there was no cover up and that members of the ACAF forum were not being misled by any subsequent decisions and / or statements, especially after the uproar caused the last time an official AFTAL statement was made.
With that in mind, Brandon, I don't believe we have met, so please, before we go any further, don't presume to label me anything or question my integrity, impartiality or honesty. I have absolutely zero vested interest in this, I have never met Dominic and until a few weeks ago and never even heard of Adrian. I have no desire to see AFTAL fall, but if it did it would have zero effect on my business.
Firstly, lets dispel the boys club nonsense. Whatever happened before this committee was formed is history. I will not under any circumstances allow my name / business / reputation to be tarnished by being involved in any type of cover up, I can assure you of that.
Let me answer your points.
>> "What IS amazing to me is how little effort went into looking at the actual signatures. "
We spent around 5 of the 7 hours at our first meeting looking at the actual signatures.
>> "Instead, you spent time getting Adrian's "promise that he was in America and met MJ"
That is not correct. That information was obtained prior to the meeting, as Ken mentions in the statement, with AFTAL's legal rep. Is it not fair and proper for an investigation to obtain as much information as possible prior to making a decision, or should we just look at a couple of scans and hang someone out to dry ?
>>"You also spent time looking at the "backs of he items"?????? I know you realize that the "A" could have been placed there after the signatures ( heck, it could have been done at your little board meeting)"
Yes we did. This was to try to help determine, as has been mentioned, how many items were collected "in person" and many were obtained by being passed to a third party and signed "out of sight". Again, it was felt necessary to try and work out how many items had actually been signed in the presence of the dealer(s) concerned and how many had been obtained with the assistance of third parties (eg security / aides etc). I can't see why you have an issue with this ?
>> "Instead, it's another AFTAL excuse to say that these items may be real."
On the contrary, this was for the exact opposite reason ! It was to determine if there was a chance that they may be fake / secretarial / whatever terminology you may wish to use.
>> "This whole statement is nothing more than a way to distract and hope that people forget over time. While your "members" have nobody to trust."
And to what, may I ask, are you accusing us of trying to distract you from ? We have put - literally - hundreds of unpaid hours into this but we have an obligation, not only to collectors but to dealers and forum members too.
You may not like the statement, it may not fit your conspiracy theories or your beliefs, but it is a statement of facts, a record of what we have found and the investigation remains, as stated, open to further input from whoever can help us.
Rather than load up the bullets, people should be emailing AFTAL with whatever additional evidence they have that feels should be looked at. Bickering like this is not conducive to resolving issues as serious as this. Why not offer some constructive criticism or advice, I find it helps the situation considerably more than name calling, especially of people you have never met or - in at least 4 of the committee's case - even communicated with in the past.
Finally - this took a while to write and there may have been further comments since I started, so sorry if the above has been repeated. I'd also like to apologise now if I am unable to respond further immediately as I have health issues which are limiting my work time at the moment.
Kind regards
- Bob
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Again, it doesn't matter because I expected an action just like this. If the club discredits the opinion(s) of Roger or other experts regarding the MJ items sold by Adrian, it simply won't be a surprise.
I will say that Jason has my trust and I expect that he will be the anchor.
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May I ask why you think we would discredit the opinion(s) of Roger or other experts ?
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Brandon actually I emailed Roger myself 2 times and asked him for his opinion so I can bring it to the day of the statement, We made sure some of Rogers COA jacksons were taken into consideration.
Trust me neither me or bob or andy or mark have anything to gain by tie ourselves to a boat that could possibly sink in the OCEAN but all we want to do is help and help and help more.
We are on here on emails on forums on calls all day every day and we dont get a penny for it, Only a fool or a crazy person would agree to do this.
But to be honest lads on you guys reading this, If aftal is gonna survive this is the time that it needs your help to join us and make sure that it moves into a new dawn with a brighter future.
You have 7 people who have 7 opinions and all agreed to try and bring light to this. If any person that has bought an MJ or any autograph by any dealer that he feels its wrong then he should maybe spend 10 or 20 bucks get a letter from PSA/DNA and then sick a refund if it turns out bad.
Then if the person refuses to refund it after that then you set the dogs to tear him apart.
I mean what else can I possibly do for you guys tell me , I dont even wanna be here but I am because I care and still maybe love what I do , Just spend 72 hrs on DJANGO unchained in the freezing called to get a handfull of autographs, I sometimes wonder if am either stupid or maybe mad.
This is why people fake because they cant put 72 hrs of chasing in -7 I was almost gonna re name myself crusty balls as I swear there was Ice on them after all those hours in the open..
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Jason emailed Roger and me asking for recommendations of other experts, which we provided. AFTAL is taking this seriously.
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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on
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Steve,
Like I told Jason in my email earlier this week; if you can't tell the differnece between an Adrian MJ and ANY other authentic one then there is another problem that you have. I can pick out one of Adrians MJ's from 20 paces away. Remember when Dominic said he compared his Queen autographs that were horrible forgeries to ones I authenticated in RR Auctions? I'm sorry but I don't think AFTAL board members are qualified to authenticate any music autographs.
What kind of crap is this "Micheal Jackson had two kinds of autographs"? MJ had many different styles of his autograph over the years but they all have the same common features that are not in the Adrian ones. AFTEL picks out one letter; the "J" and draws their conclusion, come on? Maybe traveling 7 hours made you all too tired to authenticate autographs; that I don't know but I do know these are so freaking obvious that I have no respect for AFTAL anymore. Garry saying that maybe it was because of the drug use is just plain grasping at straws. So Adrian signs sort of papaer saying he is telling the truth and it's good, no it's not. We all agree that his McCartney's are not good and even Jason said the ones he seen were 50/50 at best. People that sell known forgeries are not good honest people so why would he tell the truth on some piece of paper? He knows this is over in regards to him, you wont prosecute him. It's also known of the fake Hollywood autographs he has been selling. If it took 7 hours of looking at these MJ autographs to come up with conclusion I think you should just shut down AFTAL and go do something that you are good at. That is my opinion.
Ken I'm sorry for your losses, no time is a good time but over the holidays makes it even tougher. My prayers are with you and your family.
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