Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on July 19, 2020 at 7:01pm

Ask the seller if they would be willing to trade back the Robert Shaw autograph.  That would not be unreasonable.  Keep us posted.  “This bickering is pointless.”

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 20, 2020 at 3:24am

This has become one of the most enlightening discussions I have been involved in on this sight. There seems to be three distinct schools of thought when it comes to autograph collecting and authentication. Until now, I thought there were only two.

Group 1. The purists. These are the collectors that do not place any importance at all on any authentication service. They rely on their own experience and find this whole third party interference mostly unnecessary and often annoying. Who needs them anyway is their premise. In their opinion it's nothing more than a money grab.

Group 2. The conformists. These are the collectors who have come to accept that independent autograph verification services are useful in protecting the integrity of the hobby. Similar to a judicial system. They do not necessarily agree on the final verdict but it is the best system we currently have to resolve potential disputes. Are they perfect. No. But they are far better than the old system of "take my word for it".

Group 3. The socialists. These are the growing number of collectors who become part of a network of like minded individuals. They closely associate with one another and develop relationships and maintain their unique criteria for acceptance. They thrive as a group by maintaining order within their group.

I have no beef with any of the three groups. We are all allowed to follow the path which best suits us as individuals. It seems as long as we stay in our own group disputes have a way of working out. But the difficulty happens when the two groups collide. We don't understand how to effective communicate with each other and small problems can become big problems quickly.

I clearly fall into the Group 2 category. Honestly, I never even realized that Group 3 existed until recently. I am a live and let live type of person. There is no absolute right or wrong when it comes to autograph collecting. It is unique with each individual. But, to belittle others because they are not part of your group shows a lack of understanding and compassion. There is room in the world for all three groups.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on July 20, 2020 at 8:39am

I really have no choice but to comment now that I have been made aware of this thread of discussion.

The Ford in question has been verified by me. 

It was traded for a Robert Shaw cut that failed 3rd party authentication. 

The Ford in question was valued as an even exchange by both parties without any discussion of "It must pass 3rd party authentication."

It is not a "sit down" perfect Ford, if it were it would be sitting at the $900+ range.

A lower quality in-person Ford valued at under $500 traded for a Robert Shaw cut that failed 3rd party verification.......was and is a fair trade.

K9's COA states that the piece is 100% authentic and obtained directly by K9 graphs.  No sane street grapher would ever claim that the item will pass opinion verification. If they do, the item will be sold or traded at the correct market value, not at a discounted rate and not for trade against another item that failed 3rd party authentication.

Asking for opinions while not sharing all the information is childish b*******.  

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 20, 2020 at 8:59am

Pete, and your opinion of the Shaw was? If my memory serves me correct the Shaw did not pass a quick opinion. I contacted you asking your thoughts and you stated it was real and the QP got it wrong. So, I asked you which service you thought might be a better judge of Shaw's signature. And you recommended Bickett which it was then submitted for a full authentication. Again, it did not pass and which time I reached out to you again and you still thought the Shaw was genuine. 

You then suggested you thought there was a someone who may have an interest in the Shaw and that's when Anthony came into the picture. He surely already knew about the QP and Bickett results. 

Why would I trade the Shaw for anything else that would not pass TPA and you knew my only issue with the Shaw was it didn't pass and I could not use it? I did not even think the Ford would not pass TPA or I would have held on to the Shaw.

I am not a "street grapher" and did not even know people exchanged sloppy signatures based on who was selling the graph. And even had some kind of monetary value of such things. Excuse me for not being "educated enough". I certainly am now.

Am I misrepresenting the facts?

By the way, here is the Shaw. I don't think many will clearly see a problem with it.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 20, 2020 at 9:09am

Was this Shaw submitted to any TPA after the trade?

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Permalink Reply by Mark Miller on July 20, 2020 at 10:27am

The Ford was verified by you. No disrespect, But who do you represent (edited because I’m not trying to be snarky) just inquisitive.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on July 20, 2020 at 10:44am

I am the guy  the names you mentioned ask when they get a Ford that they aren't sure of. I am also the guy who only authenticates Star Wars autographs. Not astronauts, no presidents, not every band known to man, no sports, no inventors......just Star Wars. 

  Ask around, check this site's signature studies. 

Or feel free to use my service.... 

https://www.starwarsautographuniverse.com/authentication

 

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Permalink Reply by Mark Miller on July 20, 2020 at 10:37am

And I’ll say what everyone else is thinking. Discounting a graph due to it knowingly or “probably not” passing TPA is a big red flag for me. There are TPAs that authenticate street autos all the time. I’m sure K9 is respectable but this logic is whackado 

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Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on July 20, 2020 at 10:47am

K9's resoonse a full week before this subject was even posted.

Hi Joe, 

Sorry for my delayed reply, but have had some family stuff going on.

So I have read your previous emails, and to be honest, I am not surprised.   I am not an authenticator, and don't pretend to be, but what I do is guarantee every item that I sell is real.   None of the company's have said it is fake, because it is not, and they know that, however they will not put their name to a sloppy street signature, and that's fine.   But for you to think you need another certification to sell it, is your choice.   Many will feel confident buying it with my sticker on it, and if they do not, and want another, well they'll be paying much more for a full signature from Ford then.   

I took the risk of a Shaw that also had failed every certification as well, and I still went forward with the deal.   So how is this any different then the Shaw you traded me?   

You and I both knew it wasn't a full/neat Ford signature when we made the trade, and now you are expecting it to be something it is not.   

I'm sorry you are having trouble selling it, but I don't trade with others to worry about their future sale of things.  It was for you, just like the Shaw is for me.   

You have had items in your store for a LONG time...  If you posted the Ford and say K9 cert, and is priced correctly, it will sell....   

Anthony

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 20, 2020 at 11:02am

That is the one and only reply I received. I did not know Anthony and this only happened because you become the facilitator of the trade possibility. Simply put, you knew I could only use something that had the ability to pass a TPA. There was no mention the Ford autograph would not pass when the trade was being discussed.

I placed trust that it would. Again, I never gave a thought it would not pass or encounter problems of this nature with it. I made every possible effort to get an independent authenticator to agree it is genuine by today's standard in the marketplace.

I ask again, did the Shaw get submitted to any TPA after the trade?

I say again, the only reason I considered a trade was because you believe it was genuine. I assume you verified it for Anthony as well?

As I stated previously I use a different environment to buy and sell autographs. It doesn't matter what I think or anyone else if it does not pass an independent authentication service. Obviously there are places where this criteria is not necessary.

I cannot nor will not offer an autograph I know will not pass TPA. Heck, I won't even sell it for bottom dollar to someone willing to pay good money on a fringe signature just because they know Anthony.

Nothing against the way street graphers do things. Just not my cup of tea.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 20, 2020 at 11:20am

BTW, I never said the Ford was a fake. Only it did not pass authentication. No worries. I live an learn. Hopefully this discussion will help others, including myself, avoid these pitfalls in the future.

Personally, I will stick with venues or persons I know will work with me to come up with a solution if a possible problem arises. I know plenty of them.

I still would accept the Shaw back. At least the person who traded for it knew, in advance, the problems with it. I did not have that luxury. We all know what the word "assume" can end up meaning.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on July 20, 2020 at 11:23am

That answers one of my questions.  Thanks, Pete.

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