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Authenticity is Everything
Clark Gable?
Here's one I'd like to get an opinion on. It's a Gable signature on a Laszlo Willinger photo from a movie called "Strange Cargo." I've wondered about this one for a long time. I sent a photo of the autograph in to AutographCOA some time back for an online opinion. They said it was good. I'd still like to have some of your thoughts about it.
There is some guy selling copies of this exact same photo on eBay for about $10. It's the same identical signature in exactly the same spot as this signature. I've looked at this signature very closely under the lights. This signature was signed with a pen. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks Ladies and Gentlemen, Mike.ohotograph
Tags: Clark Gable
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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"...I pulled Richard Burton, just because Eric said it was "wrong..."
Well, what did what I posted and showed infer to you from looking? Forget the papers...what do you think?
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Permalink Reply by Patrick Michael Bratcher on
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It's not always easy or cheap to do the right thing. But, heck, I came into this world with nothing. I'll go out with nothing. The only real differences I'll make in this world are the ones I make in my own life, and the differences I'll make in the lives of those I encounter along the way. I want those encounters to produce good, honest changes, and benefits.
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That's funny: "I don't want to pile on, but I'll do it anyway!" I'm just kidding. That sounds like something I would do!
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Thus far I've pulled about $5000 worth of questionable stuff. I have some great, fully authenticated pieces to fill in the holes. Meanwhile, I'll cull through the "yanks" by having them authenticated as quickly, or slowly as my as my meager earnings allow.
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Hello folks,
I have a few things to say about this whole matter. Then, I'll let it rest.
Until just recently, I trusted Piece of the Past Authentications. I read Mr Martin's credentials, they sounded good to me. Consequently, I paid to have them look at some autographs. He said some of them looked good. He also said some of them were bad. The opinion results were about a 50/50 good/bad mix. And yes, I did list for sale some of the ones he said were good. Having been in the autograph business as long as he has been, with the background he has, I trusted his findings.
Now all this was well before I knew much of anything about AutographLive.
Then I ask for opinions on my Gable autograph. This Gable photo/autograph has always been a somewhat of a mystery to me. I was hoping to find out as much as I could about it from y'all. I've never seen this type of paper before. It's very different from the rest of my autographs. So far, I've learned a little about it. But not much.
Anyway, since posting it for "opinions," a lot of questions have been raised about my character and motives. I've also been told that I rely too much on opinions. Well, isn't that why I posted it in the first place. I was hoping to learn more about the history of this photo. Sure, I wanted additional opinions about it's authenticity. But I was also hoping to gain more information about the photo itself. So far, my effort has been largely inconclusive.
During my effort to gain more information about the photo/autograph, it was learned by some members that I had listed on eBay some of the POTP "verified" autographs. Yes, I did. Upon learning that Piece of the Past authentications are worthless in the eyes of some AutographLive members, I immediately pulled them off the for sale rack on eBay. No big deal for me. I have more than enough big three certified autographs to fill the empty spots in my eBay store. I eventually send the pulled autographs into Beckett for a "real" authentication examination.
Now, since I posted the Gable photo on AutographLive, I made public my eBay store address. Nobody forced me to do this. I did it because I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. If I were trying to pull something crooked, does anyone really think that I would make my store address known to an autograph organization with a motto like "Authenticity Is Everything?" Come on now. That would be a pretty stupid thing for me to do! A little thick at times? Yes. That stupid? I don't think so.
Well, since I let the address be known, I've been made aware that some of autographs I had listed were POTP authenticated. I've since pulled them.
My points to this whole message are:
I trusted Piece of the Past until I learned that they were not credible.
Once I learned they are not credible, by being told so, I immediately pulled all the autographs authenticated by them. I also pulled other autographs that were rendered fake and by "questionable."
Now, I been told that authentications based on online observations aren't conclusive. Yet, I just pulled at least $5,000 worth of autographs based solely on online observations. I'm not saying the signatures are fake or not. I'm saying that I seem to be getting mixed messages here. I'm being told that online opinions are inconclusive by some who've looked at some of mine and said they're likely fake or totally fake. I know some obviously look fake after a reasonably close visual exam.
But some look right. Yet how can every autograph OKed by a company be rendered fake without doing an actual exam of each autograph? Are all autograph authentications made by POTP being nixed just because the company has a bad reputation. Or, are they being rendered fake based on a thorough examination of each individual autograph?
At this point it doesn't matter. I pulled all of them, and more.
Now, I have one final question: Do any of my actions appear to be those of a fraudulent criminal looking to put one over on one of the most knowledgeable autograph organizations on the planet? If anyone thinks so, just let me know.
Thanks,
Mike
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Permalink Reply by JK on
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Just a couple comments...
"Do any of my actions appear to be those of a fraudulent criminal looking to put one over on one of the most knowledgeable autograph organizations on the planet?"
No, they don't. You seem to be genuinely interested in getting it right. The issue seems to be your approach (or former approach?) to certain aspects of the hobby/business, such as a blind trust in TPAs that may or may not have earned that trust.
"Now, I been told that authentications based on online observations aren't conclusive. Yet, I just pulled at least $5,000 worth of autographs based solely on online observations. I'm not saying the signatures are fake or not. I'm saying that I seem to be getting mixed messages here."
I fear that you might still not understand this aspect of the discussion. It's often/usually possible to know that a signature is not authentic based on an online examination, but without seeing an item in person it is virtually impossible to definitively say that it is unquestionably authentic; the form of the signature might look good, but without seeing it in hand there is no way to know that it's not a copy or print.
I've only done an online Quick Opinion once, but it came with the appropriate disclaimer and it specifically stated that it was not to be used as a basis to sell the item as authentic.
After all of this I know that you are an autograph dealer but I'm not sure if you are a collector. Speaking for myself, as a collector I want the most strict review possible of the items I might be buying. In this hobby/business it is best to strive to be your own expert, and to rely on the most discerning resources available when that is not yet possible.
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As far as being a collector or a dealer goes, I'm both. I have autographs I won't part with. I also have a lot of autographs that I will sell.
It's pretty plain for me to see that I'm gonna have to learn a lot more about authenticating autographs myself. I don't have a problem with that at all. I would love to know a lot more about the subject. Depending on others to do it for me is not working out well.
Until recently I thought that having autographs authenticated by a reputable company was the best way to go. Now I'm realizing more and more that companies are not necessarily the best way to get autographs really authenticated.
I have a bunch of autographs that have been authenticated by the big 3 companies. As a dealer, I know that buyers place a lot of importance on those stickers. They are suppose to show a possible buyer that an autograph has undergone an examination by a qualified authentication specialist and it has shown to be authentic. I also know that there are going to occasionally be wrong calls by companies. But it is still about the only way I've been aware of to get autographs authenticated.
It just looks like I need to learn how to authenticate an autograph myself to know 100% for sure whether it is genuine or not. I can and will learn.
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I agree that TPA makes your autographs easier to sell. That's just a reality. But it is sometimes a false sense of security.
I don't want to hijack the thread and it's a discussion for another time, but you mentioned stickers. I for one will never buy a stickered item. It's unnecessary damage. Certain TPAs are worse than others and will even put the sticker in an obtrusive spot so that it can't even be matted out.
There is one TPA who is so reckless with his stickering that I would never buy anything authenticed by him, even if it had a letter instead of a sticker. His judgement is so warped as evidenced by his sticker practices that I wouldn't let him authenticate my own signature.
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I'm taking your points. They're good ones. And I agree. I was too trusting. I'm not making excuses for where I've been wrong. I'm willing to own up to my mistakes, learn from them, make amends if needed, and move on to the next challenge.
However, I'm not interested in beating myself up over any of this. For me, it's pretty simple: Just acknowledge the mistake, learn from it, fix the damage if any, avoid repetition, let it go, and move on.
That was a good reply. I do hear you. And I appreciate your feedback.
Mike.
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I will say that you've been very receptive to all the constructive criticism and corrections. Not a lot of people would have stuck around through all of that.
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Thanks for the good word. They're not things I enjoy enduring. But I understand that real growth is almost always never easy or painless. For me it requires an honest assessment of my own intentions and actions. It has also never been a straight line up. It's been trial and error all the way. Even with good clear teaching, I'm prone to make errors from time to time. But I do understand that I must accept responsibility for my own bad choices. It doesn't mean I like criticism and correction. But I do understand that they're both necessary, when justified, to help me achieve and maintain a sense of peace and growth in my life. What's that old saying? No pain, no gain, I have found that to be the case.
Recently I been getting a lot of both. That's OK. They're telling me I'm on the road to something good. I've found that nothing worthwhile almost never comes easy. The diamonds in life, for me anyway, are mot found right on the surface. They're usually found in the rocky crags, in places that aren't easy to get to, the places that require work, sacrifice, and sometimes, a little bruised ego and pain to reach. Ego, pride, and the unwillingness to be honest with myself have almost always been the culprits that have kept me from learning the things I've needed to know in order to achieve my goals. This situation is no different. I don't like being wrong. But sometimes I am. I just have to be honest enough with myself and others to openly, and honestly accept responsibility for my bad calls.
Thanks,
Mike
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All that being said, I will not, however, simply accept malicious, unjustified accusations, criticism or correction aimed at me purely for the purpose of shoring up one's own sense of intellectual superiority, or their need to reinforce their own insecurities. I'm not aiming this dart at anyone in particular. I'm just letting it be known. In layman's terms, I'm nobody's stepping stone. Nor do I expect anyone to be mine. I'm of Scotch/Irish descent, you know.
Thanks, and Chow Amigos!
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