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autograph inconsistencies

ok... so while obtaining autographs at this weekend's Memorial tournament in Columbus, Oh... i noticed something. it's actually something quite common in today's autograph market.

inconsistencies of a celebrity's autograph. many actors/actresses/rock stars/ athletes etc. have a different autograph when it comes to crowds then when it comes to a one on one situation or even to a sit down signing situation. and some celebs (especially sports athletes who get paid for their signing services) change their autograph entirely for different times in either their career or whether they are being paid for their signature. I've personally seen it all and shown some examples across this forum. I've even shared the story of Chad Henne who actually said to a friend of mine who was doing a private signing where he purposely has a different autograph for free than he does for pay. I can show you where Eddie Vedder has changed his signature wildly 4 times during his career. 

some stars autographs just have slight differences just because they have signed so much over the years that it usually just becomes a quicker version of their old signature. but what happens when a celeb is basically changing his autograph minute by minute. not necessarily a wholesale change, just subtle differences.

my case here... Rory Mcilroy. 2011 U.S. Open winner. i had heard that he signs pin flags horribly. so i purposely bought a Memorial Tournament flag to see this myself. And he did just that. I followed Rory for 3 holes (until i was completely out of items for him to sign.) and i watched him sign just about anything. photos, golf balls, pin flags, index cards, magazines, programs, scorecards, hats etc. and he did. if you were a little kid, you got the best autograph from him (i had no little kids and am not one either, so i didn't get the best possible autograph). but i did see him take a little bit more time on everything else and on pin flags, his autograph looks purposely atrocious.

the three i'm going to show you are 2 photos and a close up of the pin flag signature as well. i got all three of them within a half an hour. the crowd was about the same with all of them.

so now, you tell me... if i send in all 3 to PSA DNA...do they pass the 2 photos AND the pin flag? and look, they all have slight differences to a very wild difference in the flag (where it barely looks anywhere near the same.)

do  you have any instances to share where the autograph has changed either purposely, or just in general... i'm hoping to show how and when and why celebs change their signatures... is it just circumstance?

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Permalink Reply by Mike P on June 4, 2012 at 11:58am

Great read Mike.  If I may add, Jerome Bettis fits this category wonderfully; as well as Jeter (you can easily tell a free-bee from a Steiner).  His signature at a private signing has a ton more detail to it than when he signs in person.  For example: 

Item image<--Private signing    Item image<--In person/on the street

Both authentic, but clearly different.    

Permalink Reply by Mike P on June 4, 2012 at 12:33pm

Item imageon the street                        KGrHqIOKjoE24ioWTSWBN0wq5T1Bw_12priv. signing

 and not as frequent as Bettis and Mcilroy like you said, but Jeter tends to rush the "eter" on the street.  Of course, the most common distinction of in person vs private signing is the side panel signatures in person.  

Regarding Bettis, that's funny, and probably had something to do with race.  When I got him in person during his notre dame days, the females especially got better looking signatures than the guys; is a usual case in most autograph situations.  

Permalink Reply by Mick Taylor on June 4, 2012 at 1:54pm

Have you thought that maybe you pi##ed Rory off? So by the time it came to the pinflag he'd had enough!! Rory has always been a very good fair signer here in the UK and have never experienced any bad sigs from him.

Permalink Reply by Peter C. on June 17, 2012 at 2:15am

I would not think that there is any bad reason for that. I think that its caused by the material of flag - everytime when I see autographs on T-shirts or any material which is a bit rough, the signature looks completely different than on stuff made from slippy (I hope its the right word) material. Thats the reason why signature on photograph will always look very different than autograph on T-shirt or scarf for example. 

Permalink Reply by Rich on June 4, 2012 at 2:26pm

I would guess that one of the most common examples of this would be the difference between and athlete/celebrity signing on the street vs. in a public/private signing environment.  While many celebrities sigs suck no matter what, many are decidedly nicer when they're calmly seated at a table.  I recall the first batch or two of Harrison Ford sigs from the Official Pix signings looking incredibly nice, almost like an early 80's example.  I'm especially curious to see how Daniel Craig's signature looks when he completes the Celebrity Authentics signing.

Another obvious one is the size of the crowd.  Meet the star one-on-one or in a very small group of fans, and you're probably more likely to get a nicer sig than in a crowd of crazy fans or obvious ebayers.

And of course, an increase in fame is probably one of the most common ways to change someone's autograph.  When I got Florence Welch's autograph last month, I got her in very ideal circumstances - small group (maybe 12) of fans, some of whom she recognized from the show.  I still got a very rushed example (basically just a barely legible F), typical of most of the IP examples you'll find on ebay.  Buy the current signed lithograph from her website, and you get a fuller, longer but still loose version of her same current signature.  Find one of the 2009/2010 signed posters (also sold on her website) on ebay, and the signature is just about perfect - a lot tighter and noticably more carefully signed.  You can see every letter.

Some celebs just like doing weird, quirky stuff for their autograph.  I believe Fred Armisen from SNL is a decent example.  I've seen so many bizarre things out of his "signature."   I have a signed photo of him, and the only reason I bought it was because the ebay seller took a photo of him signing that exact autograph.  I seem to recall reading something about him trying to sign a different autograph every time.  Maybe it's just out of fun, or maybe it's to make ebay sales more problematic.

Permalink Reply by Steven Jackson on June 4, 2012 at 3:50pm

I have had a few mostly with smaller bands that most won't have heard of but I got Byran Adams not to long ago and he signed for the girls nicer then for me or the other guy's. Also I got 3 signed and the sigs all look similar but still different one with a loop at the end, one with a straight line going down. and they were all signed not even a minute apart

Permalink Reply by Rich on July 5, 2012 at 7:10pm

Here are the examples I mean regarding Florence:

In-person example signed in late April.  Small crowd, but she only signed a couple autographs (Isa Summers is the signature below).  You'll see a number of these quick scribbles on ebay:

In contrast, here are the canvases that she signed for the venue, likely right before I got the autograph shown above.  When I bought one of the lithographs (which were also signed in early 2012), the signature I got was similar to these:

 

Now go back a couple years, and it gets a bit more confusing.  Before the signed lithographs were available, Florence offered signed posters on her website in extremely limited editions (100 - 300).  There were two designs, and they were even more nicely signed.  These are good examples of how he signature looked a bit different just a few years ago, when she was first promoting her debut album.

Permalink Reply by Rich on July 5, 2012 at 7:18pm

Again, these are from early 2010.

And here's an unnumbered artist proof i purchased straight from the poster designer (who also did the album cover for the "Lungs" album) a couple months back.  This looks to be even more carefully signed:

Permalink Reply by Rich on July 6, 2012 at 4:35am

Ha, she's a confusing one for sure.  Her "F" is decidedly quite inconsistent, which I find a bit bizarre.  I thought this ebay one might be bogus (though the seller seemed good):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/220809853313?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_...

Until I saw that Autograph Pros got a similar one:

Permalink Reply by Rich on July 6, 2012 at 6:18am

If the band continues to grow in popularity, I can see her being a nightmare to authenticate down the road.  Oddly, the ones I've seen that look the most like forgeries are based on the circa 2009 -2010 "nice" signature, not the more common rushed ones that look like my CD and what you'll find from many in-person collectors on ebay.

Just for reference, here's a handwritten note from just a few days ago, posted on her website:

Permalink Reply by JXE on June 5, 2012 at 9:41am

Rooney Mara SIGNIFICANTLY changed her signature about two premieres in for the Dragon Tattoo publicity tour. Even early on, when gotten at airports and soforth in small groups, she signed very full signatures. It was a sloppy "RM" as soon as the movie came out.

Permalink Reply by JXE on June 5, 2012 at 12:34pm

I'm sorry, but I don't live in Cali or near NY or anything like that so I can't get much celeb stuff I got myself. I can submit what I own, which was purchased from trusted in person collectors. 

Early December 2011 (This signature also appears on earlier stuff she signed before the release of TGWTDT):

Late December 2011 and beyond (post release of TGWTDT, when she began to get swamped at events):

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