We're an eBay affiliate and may be compensated on purchases made through clicks.
Authenticity is Everything
Van Halen Opinions Please
A fellow member has asked for opinions about this signed 1984 Van Halen album in another thread. There are things that I like and things that concern me about it so I wanted to post it as a new discussion with the hope that we can get more members to comment on it. Thanks in advance.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on
-
Carl I think his name is perry mason.
-
Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on
-
Hi Kiss,
After consulting with a few others, and while I could be wrong, I have come to the conclusion your not a half way bad guy. And I apologize for any name calling. Although some of your statements have been untrue, and malicious to others, I can understand some of it if I am seeing the situation correctly. Please correct me if im wrong, but im guessing something like the following is why you feel the way you do and why you have the graphs you have.
After reviewing your story It actually doesn’t appear you’re a forger, it appears that you just don’t know what you have, and others have agreed. And if im right your not really to blame for not knowing. This is what it seems like to me has happened, but again please correct me if wrong.
Your interested in either buying some collectibles to sell or keep and like Kiss. So you ask around, and somehow get referred to this Kevin fellow who claims to be Danzigs son. By the way, im not sure if you know it or not, but Glen Danzig publically announced he had no son. Is this b/c he is ashamed of him? ,who knows, but he did state that he has no son. But there is a forger who claims to be his son and has these various credentials, and apparently he is quite good in Kiss and Metallica. So good in fact he at one time fooled the best in the buis, Roger. Although it was soon found out they were forgeries. But disregard that part for now. So you buy these items and are proud of them and compared them to pics on the net etc, and they look comparable and so you feel confident. Well somewhere down the line, whether a collector told you, or you were told by someone you tried to sell to, or had your items kicked off ebay, that the items were forgeries. Obviously this concerned you. So you sought opinions and help. Including getting your items certed.
While looking around, an examiner saying they are forensically trained and worked for the FBI is pretty convincing. And for those not familiar with the hobby on a deeper level, it seems like a great deal. So you send them to Drew Max b/c you saw him on pawn stars and he passes all them. Unfortunately though you have just sent your items to one of the biggest rubbers stamp authenticators in the world. But you didn’t know. So you make the move to meet kiss and while their you ask him about his poster b/c it has either been taken down off ebay before, or has been questioned. Gene says looks good, so you are super confident. And I can understand this.
So now your confidence is at a level to where you know their genuine. It came from the signers mouth. The only problem is that signers often cant tell their name from forgeries. Most stars openly admit this, and please please do believe those that have said that a popular signer wont be able to tell his auto from a good forgery. Its very true and many stars have realized this and stated it publically. I know that’s difficult to swallow but think of it from Genes perspective. The poster looks good initially, and you’re a man who has signed for millions of fans. He knows his sig, but would he really be able to look at it and say its his writing. If it’s a good forgery, probably not. Imagine signing your own name. A forger concentrates on it a lot and gets your name down pat. Like Charlotn Hestons sec did, minus the L and R situation. Would you be able to tell? Odds are no, I know I wouldn’t. Now imagine if you had signed millions of autographs, would you be able to look at each and every one and say its good. You see what im saying. I know him saying that seems to be rock solid, but you cant put to much faith their in this situation.
So ebay keeps pulling your items b/c they are being reported, not be people out to get you , but by collectors who recognize his forgeries. Apparently this forger is well known and his items have hallmarks that the pros know. It is understandable you getting furious, but I think you may be mad at the wrong guy. So you ask around not only about ebay, but about your items. You try and find out why they are bein g questioned. Somehow Roger Epperson, psa, jsa, and the others get brought up. And by the wrong people. You are suddenly directed to sites such as Autograph Alert and Autograph News Live, created by the forgery business. And from their you get a lot of false info about how bad they are. No offense, but this would account for your false knowledge about Roger. Forgers say stuff like that all the time to try and convince buyers. They slander and trash the good guys and direct their clients to people like Chris Morales and Drew Max b/c they pass most all items. They are the first to tell you how bad Epperson and the rest are, and they are quick to come up with mistakes and some phony emails to tell you they are tyring to convince others. They try and show you how horrible these companies are and suggest to you, well how can you trust someone who sales on the side. I have heard forgers say that on numerous occasions. So can I ask, is this similar to what you were told, or did you come up with your animosity towards these guys on your own?
So you defend your items and wont accept they are forgeries. Even when the most experienced collectors in the world are telling you they are bad. The guys here know their stuff and their opinions should be seriously considered. Occassionally one or two will be wrong, but in this case the whole board is agreeing they are bad. I know its hard, but you have to start wondering which is more likely, that your items are good and this guys story he gave are true, regardless of the photographers story as well, or that the most experienced guys out there are all wrong. All these items came form the same source correct? Jeff. So its not like your items came from here or their, they came from one person, Jeff. So this has got to make you wonder, regardless of what he says his credentials are. Did you note how roger knew who the forger was and where you got them long before you told the board. He knew about the Danzig son thing and recognized that style of forgery from Jeff b/c now that his style is known it can be picked out. I don’t know about you but it seems very weird that Epperson could know that if this guy wasn’t a known forger.
Is this a similar story to what might have happened here? I may be totally wrong though.
I can understand all this b/c I have been ripped just like everyone here for numerous items. I thought I new them well, but got burned bad. From common crooks such as NE autographs when I first started, to UACC members gone bad. I have even purchased forgeries from a few of the major players in the game. But I live and learn. The first instinct is always that the commentors who are telling you these things don’t know what they are talking about. The items look close to in person examples and the suppliers story is very good and may even have pics,e tc, so they have to be real. Also you are told false info about who the good guys here vs the bad guys. I too was fooled at first, as I found AA and ANL when I first started collecting which painted the picture that Epperson was horrible and jsa, psa, etc. and I believed that for a while. Then I found this site and let the items speak for themselves. I listend to the commentors here and realized they weren’t from a site like FanBiz where the knowledge typically isn’t all that correct. But instead many of the guys here who comment, and im not one of them, are the best in their fields and are against forgeries. There are a few on here who misrepresent themselves, but the commentors here are telling you the truth. The items are forgeries.
But instead of not believing me or anyone else, you may want to think on it, and ask why they are. Im sure some educated members here would be willing to tell you how they know, and what else they know about this forger Jeff. You kill more flies with honey, you know what iim saying. Start tryin to verify if FDEs are really good at all and who the best players are in authentication. Make full use of this site and its threads, and you will see just how bad Drew Max is and your mind will probably begin to change. I think it will become obvious, like it did for me, that the members are here to help and that if this many people are telling you they are bad, then more than likely they are. Another r thing to do is to ask members here about this guy Jeff, I know several have lots of incriminating evidence on him. And search the threads for any of the names that have told you that the guys that you think are really bad are selling bad items. Odds are that you will find threads discussing just how many forgeries these same people are selling. The forging industry will do whatever they can to trash the good guys. They have done unbelievable things including making fake documents, altering COAs, photoshopping photos, spreading misinfo, etc. Their reach is staggering.
I have thought on this and thought you may want to consider what ive said if my depiction of what happened to you is correct. Start to think of why your items were pulled and ask around. I can guarantee your GNR items are fake without a doubt as I know them very well. And if that source is Jeff then you know he is selling bad items. Ask for examples from members here and im sure you can get them and begin to see what is going on. I know you have purchased a lot from this guy and I feel sorry for you, but your items aren’t being taken down or commented on b/c of animosity, but b/c they really and truly are bad.
As I read things more deeply and after talking to another, I don’t think you’re a bad guy, just a guy who has been ripped off and set off down the wrong past by the forging industry. I am wiling to help anyway I can. And the deal stands about the authentication if you want to go that way.
I know this is a long boring message, but I thought I would try and let you know just how bad the forgers are and how far their grasp goes. You cant trust a story at all in any way, no matter who tells you it. You have to let the graph speak for itself. I have lost a lot of money in learning this, and I hope that at the very least, you wont purchase from Jeff again. He really is selling forgeries,
Best
Carl
-
Permalink Reply by kissdestroyer1966 on
-
Wow, I thought I could write a lot! That was a very thoughtful response must have taken a bit of time to write. I will think about what you have communicated.
Not that it matters but Jeff told me I spelled the Band Photographerd name wrong. It is Mike Snider.
I want to issue an apology to the forum for my beligerent comments late last nigh. Had a few too many cocktails. Wish they could be removed. I was actually embarrased when I read them this morning.
If you get a chance, can you post a good Van Halen, KISS and GnR Item so I can see what good looks like? I havent seen any posts yet.
Thanks!
-
-
Kiss,
I will definetly post some examples for you tomorrow of good GNR items as i will have more time then. I wish i had the photo shop skills of others where they can put images side by side of certain cuts from the photograph to make for easy comparing, but i have never used photoshop. Even though i probably should learn how. I dont have the images of the GNR images you had up, but if you want to post them, i can point to certain areas and try and show you what i see wrong with them. Otherwise i dont known what good i can do as for trying to show what i see wrong. But i can just post some authentic examples if you want.
Kiss items you probably will have to look to others for if they will chime in. I do own an Ace bought directly from his website and a signed cologne bottle of Paul, but thats all. As i have been told, Jeff, whether he is the forger or just the supplier i dont know, but that the forger was very good at both Metallica and Kiss. Apparently even the pros thought they were real at first. So comparison their will best be suited for a member who specializes in them, and their are several on this site.
Van Halen, i know Eddy well, but the rest are not my specialty. I do remember on some of Jeffs items he sold you that i could recognize the whole bands forgeries, but thats all. But i can definetly help with GNR as they are my all time favorite band, and i have many of their autographs.
Something to think about with this jeff fellow if you are talking to him. Ask him what he says about Glen Danzig openly stating that he had no son. And that was not in a joking manner. He was asked that purposely b/c of this forgers claims. Also ask him why Epperson, PSA, or JSA would deny these items. Forgers in my experience backpedal and lie wherever their is opportunity for profit, and of course they cant keep track of their lies. They spread lies and unfounded rumors. Taking emails or forum responses and using only parts of them and cut and paste to make the message look completely different. They use every dirty trick possible. So ask as many questions as you can to him. Find out names, numbers, dates signed, how he knows them, etc. Question him up and down and remember the answers. If he brings others into his conversation such as epperson, or any other member who can defend themselves here, post his responses. Often what will become known, is that either they were bold face lying, they made up information or used it falsely, or can completely be proven to dishonest using what they have said against them. Thats why i was asking you so many questions. To be honest it was b/c i thought you were a forger or known seller of forgeries. But your answers seemed to point in another direction, and now im pretty sure you are just a victim of this guy who is mad, and understandably so.
If your in communication with Jeff, i would invite him here to openly defend himself. Most of the time this will never happen with a forger. But his items are being questioned at the utmost level, so he should be very willing to come here and defend them or prove everyone wrong. If he wont, ask him why. Another major thing to think on is how can any authenticator fail an item, and then know exactly where it came from (meaning the person who forged it). A good example here is the fake MJ signatures that AFTAL is so caught up in controversy with. An extremely well trusted dealer was claiming he had got many MJ signatures in person, yet they were fakes. No one could believe they were bad and that he would sell bad stuff, but the graphs spoke for themselves. And soon enough, even his friends realized what he was doing. Now that same forgers signature style, although a good forgery can now be picked out of a pile of MJ's, both real and fake. Not only are they recongnized as fake, but authenticators like Roger, can sort through mounds of MJs and if this fellows forgery style is their, he knows it. The same with other styles of forgeries such as the southern california forgery style of the beatles forgeries. A trained eye remembers the hand characteristics of that forger.
IN this case Roger knew who the forger of these items were long before you told where they were from. Because he had seen them before and recognizes this guys work. No guarantees that if you ask Roger nicely, he may be able to explain in depth his characteristics. Im not near that good with recognizes certain forgers. But the fact that items that have been forged by a certain forger, spreading any genre, can be recognized mixed in with many other autographs says alot.
Another thing i would encourage doing is messaging Roger or Michael H, and asking them about Jeff and how they know his stuff is bad. I know that they arent your favorite people, but its important to get both sides of the story. If Jeff or anyone else told you Roger was bad then you might want to see the other side of the story. And Roger backs things up with facts and documentation, often catching the forger red handed so to speak. Again when i first came here i thought Roger and Steve were criminals and that this sites members were uneducated from what i was reading on others sites. Then low and behold i realized they were lying at these sites.
Sorry such a long message again, but if i can help you get a refund i will. I can try and talk to someone i know who might be able to shed more light on the forger of these items if youd like me too. And ask questions questions questions to these guys that sold you these. I bet you will catch them in the act yourself before its over. If they say not to believe Epperson or anyone but an FDE, ask them why? Ask them who they would choose to get it authenticated from. Ask if they have any proof these guys are bad. If they say that the items are good without question and start naming times and dates, record those. If when we start looking at examples and points are brought up, ask the seller why these characteristics are so irregular on their items but not on others? Get specific on each item, and if needed on each letter.
A good way to find out credibility off the top of my head is to ask for a refund. If they say no, ask who it would take for you to belive the items are fake. Typically they will name you a rubber stamp FDE, and then you will know. Do some searches on here about FDEs including drew max and chris morales. You will be mortified. It really is comical alot of the time. And above all, if you talk to Jeff ask him why his autographs can be picked out of hundreds of artists of the same name, both forgery and authentic. If they were authentic, that couldnt be done, if it was just an odd forgery here and their it wouldnt be possible.
Only if a forger is selling mass items can his writing be recognized as a specific trait of a forger. I would be very interested at that answer. Also at why his supposed father denies his existance. If he still pushes and says hes he is, go to Danzig's website. Find his email or at the least his Mgmt. Get in touch with his people and tell them that a man claiming to be Glen Danzigs son is using that name to sell high priced autographs. See what they say. They probably will put you in touch with his people. And that will be your answer. If he doesnt have a son named Jeff who is a certain age that sells autographs then he is busted. Also ask Jeff if he can get some pictures of himself with Danzig form his childhood and recently proving he is his son. If he claims it was an illigitimate birth or that he just doesnt talk with is dad anymore, ask him then how he has his supposed connections in the rock world.
If the photographer is vouching for Jeff, ask him his relationship with him. Ask him if he saw the items signed or if he just took the pictures and then Jeff got the sigs. Demand to know if the photographer saw them in person being signed. If he says yes ask for dates and times and compare those to what Jeff tells you.
But anyway i will gather my stuff from GNR and post it tomorrow. If you dont mind putting the pics of the items you have of GNR up i can tell you specifics on each one of the names. Or if you dont want to do that and could just take up close photos of only the sigs, that would work too.
-
Permalink Reply by Darren Ruskin, III on
-
kissdestroyer - with "friends" like this Jeff Dancing who needs enemies? You should really think about this long and hard before you throw any more time or money into helping "clear" this persons name. Unless you are willing to go to the matt yourself for what this guy has been doing - which is forging autographs just because they have a family member in the business and can ride those coat tails I would get out now and quick. you are playing with fire if the ebay items you had up are representative of other items this guy has had in the past. yes he appears to be pretty skilled at Kiss signatures but his van halen, gnr, and others are just really disgusting. really really vile! please step back and take a look at what is going on here...
-
-
Kiss,
I have some images and comparisons ready to post if you dont mind posting the GNR items you were sold by Jeff. I dont think posting my images on their own will do much good. I cant even remember what Jeff's looked like now, i just know they were not authentic. But id be happy to give you my opinion of whats wrong with them if you want to post the pics. Hopefully some others will then join in and we can get some good comparisons and characteristics identified.
Carl
-
-
Wow, another lengthy and thoughtful response. Thanks! You seem to have a great deal of knowledge and passion regarding this matter. Sure you don’t work with Roger and/or Michael? Sure sound like you do. I heard similar stories from Daniel Simpson who I also am friends with. I think he was torn between the opinions of Roger Epperson/Michael Frost (PAAS) (which are very similar to yours which is a little odd) and the stories that Jeff provided him (similar to the stories Jeff has provided me). But ultimately, that doesn’t matter. I have to make my own judgment.
You have given me a great deal to think about! I am very busy with the holidays and getting situated in my house in Buckeye. (That 82 mile commute was killing me more so than this ongoing saga over stupid autographs.) I mean when you think about it, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Who really cares unless one is fabricating and selling on purpose as you have communicated about Jeff. Which If true, is a definite problem.However, it does beg the question: “If he is the well know forger, that can perfectly duplicate hundreds of different autographs from right and left handed artists, so good that it fooled Roger in the past (the person who knows Gene Simmons autograph better than Gene himself), sells them across state lines using the US postal service, why has he not been brought to justice by the authorities?”. We all know he has an ebay site (rock n roll hell) where he distributes back stage passes, lamintes, promo CD's, promo photos without fear of retribution and has been doing so for a while. Doesn't seem to hide as you would think a perfet forger would. We all know this is a federal offense and not taken lightly. Just another enigma in this array of potential lies and deception in the wonderful world of autographs. This has puzzled me for quite some time. WOW is this CRAZY or what!I need to get away from this for a while and focus on things outside this forum. It has taken up way more time than I ever thought it would. I also need some time to research things you have communicated.As I have mentioned several times, my brother is an Aurora detective and has addressed some of the question you ask (quite some time ago). I’m a little slow but I catch on eventually. But I will peruse your scenario and verify there is nothing I missed. He will be more than happy to help.Additionally, my neighbor, is Vince Imbordino (I know you like names). He is a prosecuting attorney and works for the Phoenix District Attorney. I have talked to him about some of the craziness in the market (as he has seen a great deal of my collection on the walls of my house in the music room and in my office in Buckeye). He might be willing to help me further determine if what you said has some truth to it. I know he is very busy and autographs would never be his top priority. No, he prosecutes the major violent crimes in the valley (typically murder trials). In fact, he has a perfect record. Never lost a case. Not sure how publicized it that is but I know he gets embarrassed when you bring it up. You would never know he is such a “pit-bull” in the courtroom for he is such a plain, simple, humble, and nice guy (must have a split personality). However, he does have a huge interest in autographed baseball memorabilia. So who knows, he might be interested to help me in this area. He has season tickets to the Diamondbacks. Nice enough to let me use his tickets from time to time. Has even given me passes to get autographs from the players that only season ticket holders get. Very nice of him! His wife Dovie, is really sweet as well. She is a dog lover and always watches the dogs for me. She dog sits for many people in the community. Sorry, like so often, I diverge.I can also ask Vince about unbiased forensic testing to have my items analyzed. I am sure the prosecuting branch of Phoenix must have some resources for doing this type of analysis (although it might not be available to the public). If he comes up with a potential party, I will present to the forum and we can agree to use them or not.I must say, this certainly hasn’t been the fun hobby I thought it was going to be!I do appreciate your time. I will look into what you have said and get back to you. I guess for my sake, I hope you are incorrect. But we will just have to wait and see.Thanks Again - Pat
-
-
Kissdestroyer1966,
I dont know about others, but changing your name on here to, Have a take but dont suck, is pretty offesnive. AFter reading your reply its obvious i cant do anything for you, nor can anyone here. I went out of my way to try and give you the benefit of the doubt and to help you figure out the truth. But instead of being appreciative that i took that time, you come back questioning me and who I am. I even went out of my way to get my examples of GNR all scanned in so that we could discuss your items. But you wont post them. So far I am the only person here who has chosen to remotely throw you a bone, and its returned with more accusations that I am working for Roger and remarks demeaning the information i gave you and how i gave it to you.
I will no longer be giving you any more attention. I can do nothing more for you and its just not worth my time. My best advice is that you just dont sell these items anywhere. If they hit ebay they will get removed, and if some do get sold, it is only a matter of time before the purchaser finds this site and then wants a refund. As all the things discussed in this thread and images used all turn up in a simple google search for everyone to see. What you chose to believe is on you, but if you really wanted help with these items you have not acted like it. You have acted to the contrary. Maybe someone will throw you a bone in the future, but i am done trying to help. I wish you Good luck with getting your money back on those forgeries.
-
-
Pat - I know nothing about this Jeff Dancig or have ever heard his name, but if he is the person this stuff is coming from it is very obvious what has happened after re-reading this entire discussion. It seems as 'ol Jeff at one time or another did have authentic items. If he was making some extra money with these items and he ran out of items, he then simply started forging more..which is probably where you're items came from OR since by admission his KISS forgeries are REALLY good (compared to the other bands he is trying to pull off) these other people you are talking about that had purchased his items in the past (Michael H, Grad, Epperson, or whoever) - they seemingly later after studying them for awhile figured out that the items were forged. Yes, KISS would sign piles of stuff during the no-make up days, but getting Ace & Peter back then was a REAL challenge....odd how things change. Once they put the makeup on they ALL became tough....do-able, but tough. There is no crime in someone being taken by a crook that is extremely skilled at what they do if the person buying the items discontinue the sale of the items. The excuse that "so-and-so" got pissed because Dancig was selling to other people and they in turn started calling his stuff bad is ludicrous. You sound like a decent guy - I would REALLY re-think who you can believe in this situation (and it isn't this "J.D")
-
-
Carl Ryan, why dont you come out and tell us who you really are. It is obvious by your knowledge regarding this matter you are not just an innocent bistander. In fact, you sound like a dummy account for Roger or Michael Hoppe (maybe you are even Steve since he seems to be in bed with you guys?). Probably Roger in that you suppport him like his mother. I am sure Roger has dummy accounts to support his reputation. He sure needs it based on what I read on the Fraud Report on the Internet. Rogers name is posted all over it. After looking at his webstie I can see why. He has as much fake stuff as Hoppe. Too bad, he probably started off as an honest guy but it is tough to make a living in autographs since no one signs without being paid anymore.
-
Permalink Reply by Travis Christenberry on
-
Yes, Carl. He has changed his ebay username once again.
-
-
Great catch Travis,
Well that name will now of course be watched to see if the forgeries he was trying to sell last time pop up. But of course now that his new account is revealed, an even newer one is sure to follow. And if legit autographs are posted no problem. But those items being sold and the style they were signed will constantly be looked for now. Coming to this site, attempting to sell forgeries after you were alerted to the fact, and now calling out possibly the best music authenticator in the world is really showing alot of ignorance. And thats not my opinion. Ask a respected dealer and they will tell you the same.
As you are aware i am a fan of Roger, Steve, and any other dealer/authenticator/collector who is against forgeries, who know their stuff, and who puts their neck on the line. And if you want to call that being up someones butt or anything else feel free.
i was wrong in one of my comments above. At one point i thought you just were being given wrong info from forgers. But in this thread you have some of the best experts from around the globe in the music field giving you the opinions they are forgeries. The evidence for them was clearly presented. The authenticators and buyers you used are known bad apples. And you were told to simply search this site and youd find all the proof you needed. Several members, including myself also offered to give a word by word breakdown of why the items you had were bad. All your items for sale were saved anyway by others, but we asked you to put them up. You didnt. And thats very revealing.
It is obvious that from this point on you are just trying to stir up trouble and drama and have committed to continue to sell the forgeries you posted here. Good luck with that, but the members here will be watching. And prepare for them to be taken down as soon as they go up. You might like I offer, or hey, even one better......the auction house known as The Signing. Youll be right at home.
Photos
Groups
© 2024 Created by Steve Cyrkin, Admin.
Powered by
Badges | Report an Issue | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service
