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Authenticity is Everything
Detroit 1964: Beatles First USA Tour... autographs
This was a set of "autographs" with a a notary made by the woman whose boyfriend working as a stage hand at the Detroit Concert. It was purchased by a person in Lees Summit, Missouri, sold to a drummer "Rocky N." who played drums for various Sixties Groups playing Las Vegas, Nevada gigs.
Drummer Rocky N., who lived in Raytown, Missouri had it framed at Las Vegas. After several years he sold or traded it back to the original finder of the autographs. This person traded this wonderful frame to me as a "novelty" with the Notary of the Lees Summit, Missouri woman. I forget the name of the stadium, but it was in Detroit, and date. Her recollection of the stadium was wrong and the date off by a couple days. After decades... no wonder.
Just by casually looking at these autographs they all look like the same person did each signature. Obviously this person was familiar with the "general" appearances of the style. I do not doubt that these were done in 1965. Otherwise, this woman who had no interest in collecting and received the sheet for no cost, would not have stowed it away for decades. Only to find a neighbor who was willing to swap something for it. It is Rocky N., the drummer, who invested hundreds of dollars to have this wonderful frame made.
I had posted on December 17th a Thread concerning the TWA Flight 703 Beatles memorabilia proliferation done by TWA in 1965. I have never heard anything with the Pan American FIRST Beatles flight crew gathering anything... yet. Maybe someone will correct me on this thread.
These could be Neill Aspinall "early USA Concert proxy autographs". Even if you were a "roadie, setting up stages for the Beatles"... you could not be certain that the Beatles had even touched the pen that was used to SIGN anything.
There are some who are quick to judge what is and what is not... authentic on this Forum. Can anyone give some obvious comments as to why I, a pure amateur, would consider these forged, proxied or a Neill Aspinall "originals"?
The first example is what I call not authentic (the cutout star backing). The second (mine) and third (Ruth's copy & Ted Schaar article) I consider authentic from the TWA Flight 703 material.
Although can anyone confirm or deny these are Neill Aspinall signings?
What are your comments about these four signatures. When the best and brightest commented, I will. A nobody, non collector who finds some experts know very little about a lot of things.
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DSCN1630.jpg, 318 KB
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Ruth.Env.Autographs.Web.jpg, 373 KB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by SevenOut on
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Just to be clear.
WHY would you consider these NOT the Beatles autographs?
WHAT makes you agree with me that these are NOT?
WHA makes you disagree with me that these ARE good?
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Permalink Reply by Richard Booth on
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The page looks good. The photo is secretarial signed, possibly Aspinall.
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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on
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Here's an authentic set of Beatles autographs from August, 1965:
Here is an example of Neil Aspinall proxy signatures:
I have a number of additional examples of Aspinall proxy signatures. You can click on my profile and see my copy of "A Hard Day's Night" that was signed by Aspinall.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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The photo's autographs are way off. Ballroom is much better on Beatles than I am, certainly on recognizing Aspinall's proxy autographs, but in my opinion neither of the other two were signed by the Beatles and I think he's right they were signed by Aspinall.
For starters, compare the tails of the Gs of Harrison in your two sets to the genuine 1965 set that Ballroom posted. Notice how straight the downstrokes are compared to yours. That's a rather consistent Harrison trait.
Then look at the Ts in your McCartneys compared to Ballroom's genuine set. The T in Ballroom's is pointy at the top. Yours are widely rounded. McCartney's Ts aren't always pointy but that was also typical back then.
The Aspinall set Ballroom posted has straight downstrokes in the Gs, but the McCartney T is widely rounded and looks much like yours overall.
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Thank you so much! It is amazing how good the Aspinall signatures are done. Finding this site has convinced me that it was a wise decision NOT to collect autographs. There is no room for ignorant novices with the amazing skill in forging them.
The Flight 703 group bought from the daughter of Mr. Helmer cost me $2,400 on November 27, 1989. The first and last year I had any interest in autographs. Her and her husband were remodeling their kitchen and did not need the Beatles items... Her story was 100% with Flight 703. The autographs were not 100%. Not even 1% from my current understanding from this Forum. Bill Liss, the PR guy for TWA, obviously could not have the members of the Beatles sign the blank sheet IN PERSON, if the consensus is... they are not authentic. No wonder Bill Liss is reluctant to repeat his statement to Ted Schaar, as to how the autographs were obtained. Maybe he will if he is still living and settle the issue once and for all. Otherwise... I am the man holding the empty bag.
Possibly the daughter of Mr. Helmer already knew more and had been told none were genuine. I accepted her story and that they were determined authentic. I am sure they enjoyed their remodeled kitchen and I do hope that members of this Forum enjoyed my being attracted to these Beatles signatures. I still have some hope that the blank sheet memo set is the genuine article. If not... the group still looks good framed and might find a good home as THE BEST FLIGHT 703 GROUP AVAILABLE ... ever.
Too bad Aspinall did not sign the Detroit group. It would have had more appeal to the layman. It is a good warning to all novice buyers.
George Harrison's name is written as Goef Harrison. That is what looked odd at the beginning. Then the pen strokes were nearly identical to one another. If I sign something and my wife signs something using the same pen... there is an obvious difference. The frame was a wonderful job done by a Las Vegas framer. Too bad the contents were not as wonderful. Rocky N. might have had a bit of expert advice when he swapped this frame... if you get my drift.
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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on
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the photo is definitely not signed by the Beatles. I do not study proxy signatures but I trust Ballroom's judgement on that. I am not a fan of the other set on the sheet.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Cushman on
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Don't like them...
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... me either.
When I was heavy in the record business a Beatles Fan Club auto pen was with some Beatles 45's. Newbies could be easily taken with those.
I had a friend who bought a set of Beatles signatures at an antique shop. He brought them to me and they were so bad, even I could tell. They were on a calendar page. I peeled it back a bit and it was dated 1982. John Lennon was among the group... still. His trip back to the antique shop was immediate and the seller was not going to argue the point...
So, obviously many like myself have been burned over time. Even rare 45's can be pressed and picture sleeves faked and the last 78rpm Beatles recording from India may even be faked today... but websites as this put reality into our fantasy of finding something worth keeping for ourselves.
It is all in the hunt. Just sometimes we are too trusting due to a lack of information thirty years ago... but today... none of us have an excuse to be "ripped off".
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