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Authenticity is Everything
Authenticators... How can anyone say who is good and who isn't?
Hey guys, thank you for allowing me into the group. I do have some frustrations to express and I see it all as good honest chat, so please no one take offence as none is meant, lol.
I have been reading some of the posts in there and it seems like people like to slam some but not others. I see, Morales, Drew Max for example are some who seem to take alot of hits, yet I have seen a lot of issues with PSA/DNA as well.... At the end of the day, its strictly an opinion and nothing more..... I have several HUGE autographs, some of which I know are authentic just by the source they came from.
I have a Shoeless Joe Jackson ball that would have been signed after his playing days (and no, not by his wife, but the ball was signed by himself) but it came from a very close family relative who personally had it signed back in the day and it sat in their house for decades, it doesn't get any more genuine than that, yet when I posted a picture of it, people were quick to slam it because apparently they know it all... or do they?
Unfortunately, this industry has taken a pounding because of the a-holes who have mad a business of screwing people, I get that... but everyone also thinks they are an expert, and in some cases, people really have no clue.
As a 15 year old, I was a purchaser for several card stores here in Ontario Canada, I know Hockey Cards better than most.... I wanted to see how Beckett would rank their grading compared to my own education.... I brought it to them at a huge show we have here in Toronto 2 times a year.... they said at the time that the card should be ranked a 5 out of 10. I agreed.... 3 weeks later, their apparent "Hockey Expert" sent it back to me as a 2.5.... now, I didn't knock him out like I wanted too, lol. But I did approach them at the next show, they were embarrassed and asked me to resubmit it, it still came back less, I called them to ask.... they had no idea.... its now going back for a 3rd time.... and these are professionals who advertise as being so....
Now, getting back onto autographs, when I didn't tell people the story behind it, they said it was a fake, then when I said the story behind it, their opinions started to change..... so, at the end of the day... who is right and who isn't?
I do think that they try their best to get it right, but who will ever be 100%, not going to happen. People talk about the bad situations with Morales and Max, but I am willing to bet, they have gotten it right WAY more than not and they probably have the same winning % as PSA/DNA in the long run....
I usually don't comment on things but I do believe that in the end, if your gut tells you its good, then your most of the time going to be bang on... and no one should let that take the fun of collecting away from things. Be careful, educate yourself and make the best decision possible. I don't think guys like Max and Morales are any worse than the others to be totally honest and I have been collecting for MANY Years.... and lets not forget, people can very easily post things online that can seriously effect someones reputation and if you do your homework as suggested... it seems all of them have negative feeds posted on them....
Just my thoughts guys, again, not looking to insult anyone, but I think some posts can be a bit much....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Mark on
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The whole purpose of this discussion was about the Authenticators in question.... Not to slam me of the piece I have. The piece I have is no question authentic to me because of the source, and frankly I don't have to prove a thing to you or anyone as I'm not selling it or getting rid of it.... Again, I'm not on trial in this post so there is no need to go at me because some "think" they have the answer.... I didn't ask anyone's opinion on the ball in this post, yet I've been instantly slammed which has this site losing credibility of all people are going to do is slam people about topics not even relevant to the discussion.... No one except me knows the history and I'm the only one who needs to be convinced because the ball will stay with me and my family for many years to come.... Everyone in this post has looked at every reason why it "could" be a fake no one mentions how it "could" be real.... Seems to be a trend in almost every post....
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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
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"...no one mentions how it "could" be real.... Seems to be a trend in almost every post...."
Well, does that not that include you? The floor is yours to be the first.
Eric
PS - You wrote three paragraphs about this clearly problematic ball, two in the first post, saying it is genuine, you know this etc., making it you who brought is questionable status into this - so it is fair game IMHO.
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All I was referring to was the fact that one signature people we ripping apart looked identical to one that I have that I know is 100% genuine... And I question how everyone can rip people apart who don't have any experience compared to them.... That was all, then it instantly went into a slam at me, my character, etc.... Just like so many posts on this site, it goes from an honest and legit question to an instant slam....
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I did not slam anyone's character - for one thing, it doesn't help explain the ball. For another, I don't know you. You are taking things very personally. I am talking to a ball and some ink in effect. I have been asking questions based on the little information you have actually provided. What forms the majority of your belief is genuine? You can not KNOW as if you saw it signed for example, so you are relying on what, exactly?
Eric
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Permalink Reply by Mike T on
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Because no one is going to take you seriously when you say things like:
"I don't think guys like Max and Morales are any worse than the others to be totally honest"
And
"I'm VERY experienced in autographs... About 30 years experience and my personal collection will outweigh most on this site"
Especially when you think the most obvious forgery in the world is authentic because of a story you have. Prove your points and people will take you more seriously. Honestly to me it looks like you're just trolling because most of your statements are laughable.
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It's an option, something we are all entitled to.... This has gone from an opinion to a slam of my character... When I know something is real and I'm being told it's not then yes, it's a slam of my character....
Only reason I ask about Max and Morales is because I see lately everyone is being slammed by every company... So who is to say which one is better than the other... That's really all I've Ben asking....
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Again Mark,
You made the claim it is genuine, repeatedly, so you must expect questions because your responsibly, as the claimant, is to substantiate the claim. I would think this is in your interest. To not do so...is a response of sorts. Can you post better pics?
Eric
I personally don't care very much who says what about what company. Can one even say one is "better" - it still depends on the signature one might be discussing or questioning, or should. It still comes back to the ink and item in the end. Any discussion of the signature is still ahead of you.
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Here is the problem I have... I have a piece that's been in my family for over 60 years and my family has noted it well and it's always been a discussion... The family member never had intents on ever getting rid of it not do I, so really, there is no need or care to have anyone's opinion on it because it literally won't change the fact that the best evidence is one from a family member who has had it since the 40's. I've seen it my whole life and my uncle had seen it for all of his.... Now, that being said... If it was a fake... Wouldn't the ink have faded regardless in 40 or 60 years either way?
See in the end, whether it's you, anyone on this post, PSA, Morales, Max, or anyone for that matter... All they can provide is an educated guess... Nothing more, literally!
The whole reason I started this post was because I knew it would turn into people questioning my morals and character and yes, that was done throughout several posts just by the backhanded comments made throughout when really.... No one can be sure if anything... They are saying ALL ink fades and the ball was played before it was signed, etc etc etc....
I agree the ball was played with because that's what the story behind the ball states. It was a kids ball and he had the opportunity to have something signed and that was all he had at the time.... Ink fading would have to depend on its condition. If it was wrapped in a cloth in a closet for decades then chances are there would be little fade and let's be honest.... No one in the world can prove otherwise... It's all hearsay....
There really is no expert in authentication and so no one in this room can say one thing or another... Simply a guess....
If this ball was bought of the street then I could raise concerns, but in this case... It wasn't and my family has always had the highest level of credibility to me and that's the best guess I can go on, that his story is most likely the right one....
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If you're happy with it that's all that matters. Unfortunately in this hobby in order for something to have value, other people have to agree it's legitimate. If no one else thinks it's legit, it will have no value.
That's how it works, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if you were there right next to Mr. Jackson in 1909 when he signed it, if you can't prove its real and everyone else thinks its fake, then it has no value to anyone else other than you.
So keep it to yourself and be happy with it, but don't expect to get favorable opinions if you keep talking about it here.
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Another 20 years just went by? This getting older stuff is killing me! Thought it was 40 years. Now it's 60. Oh well.
Now, you've said three times I am attacking your character - show where I am attacking your character or you stop saying that now, OK?
"No one can be sure if anything..." - this would also includes you, no? But you maintain you know, so...show?
"If it was a fake... Wouldn't the ink have faded regardless in 40 or 60 years either way?"
Not following you here.
"If it was wrapped in a cloth in a closet for decades then chances are there would be little fade and let's be honest.... No one in the world can prove otherwise..."
What kind of cloth or wrapping? Cosmoline? Sulphur ridden cotton sack cloth? People who have seen items stored in different conditions over time gain experience and know what to expect. For example, coins stored in leather pouches tone very differently than coins stored with other methods such as (paper) tissue.
Eric
PS - Now if ink had been added...even that hasn't been suggested because the overall appearance is so off. Who here thinks this ball falls inside normal parameters of appearance??
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Mark,
In addition to what Mike just mentioned, saying you know fountain pen does not fade also does not bolster your claims.
You mention proof, we ask for the proof. You said "...I've already got a letter from the member who got the ball..."
Why not post that? I'll look at it.
Eric
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