Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David K on February 24, 2015 at 2:09pm

It is NOT honest to sell a piece that had someone "go over" the original ink with a better pen..if that info is not noted inthe auction...or in the for sale information IMO it is about the same as selling a forgery..sorry..If someone took a pen on a very light Ringo and darkened it..I would feel the autograph is actually ruined.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony on February 25, 2015 at 8:15am

They don't actually use another pen at all. They go over it using a #1 horsehair paint brush (VERY FINE) and use a water color based paint. Then they apply a "sealer" on it to prevent it from bleeding. This enables them to blend the color in seamlessly with the original or if there is no ink left, just an impression, they can color match the other ink that way using the paint. As mentioned, they can even simulate the skips in the pen and the dark and light areas to account for pen pressures.

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Permalink Reply by Barry S on February 25, 2015 at 8:26am

Then it is no longer authentic. Sad

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Permalink Reply by Scott Paul on February 25, 2015 at 8:38am

The way I see it any new ink, water color paint, etc is obscuring the original autograph no matter if they use a brush, pen or spray can.  In my opinion it destroys the integrity of the original signature.   The only good thing is I am sure it is a fairly costly process so likely now only big ticket items are at risk of this.  If prices go down or third world countries get in the act I believe it would have a serious effect on collecting.  I also feel if this is done it becomes a partial autograph, at best,  not a complete one.  I do appreciate you bringing this subject up it is something collectors need to be aware of.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony on February 25, 2015 at 10:26am

Actually, the scary part is that is NOT that expensive to do at all. To have a signature re-inked costs between $75-$150 for each signature. To have the autograph removed and placed on another item costs between $125-$200. So, if you take the cost of each autograph sold separately and then place them all on one piece the value goes way up in price. So that is the motivation for people to do this.

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Permalink Reply by Scott Paul on February 25, 2015 at 10:38am

That is far worse than I imagined.   They could easily recoup their cost on a big ticket item.  The ethics of this is something eBay and other auction houses should consider and require full disclosure that the item has been altered.  Plus if someone is that skilled a "restorer" (I use the term lightly) that they could trace a pencil signature what is to stop them doing that to a pre-print or worse a photocopy of a genuine signature.  If there is money there is also temptation.   Fortunately most of my collecting is at the under $500 level so still pretty costly to make a profit even then. 

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Permalink Reply by David K on February 25, 2015 at 1:44pm

Buyer Beware...wow...is there any way to tell when you buy a vintage autograph id this has been done? what would you use to examine it closely for these type of actions?  Tha  tis very scary...if you pay 10,000.00 for a "set" of Beatles autographs..they might have all been re inked with a PSA approval letter ? PSa does not check for re-inking or movement of signature? Does this only apply to signatures on a WHITE background? (Blank card/post acrd/back of a photo) or can this be done to something signed on a photo image?

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Permalink Reply by Anthony on February 25, 2015 at 1:49pm

This can be done on ANY paper or form. I have seen Paul McCartney signatures that were on a 8x10 placed on a pickguard and guitar and sold as a genuine hand signed pickguard or guitar. I have seen items on different color paper placed all on one color paper or had the paper color changed (by airbrushing) to enhance the autographs even more. I have also seen this done with fan club cards on the front with their picture and on LP album covers. They can do anything with ANY form of medium.

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Permalink Reply by David K on February 25, 2015 at 1:55pm

That is more than mind blowing..that may account for why certain never seen signed items come up for auction. You are stating with the proper tools and someone who is very good at this...they can take a "bob DYlan" signed white card and transfer the autograph to a guitar? Same for Paul MCcartney. or SPringsteen etc.if they signed their name fully on a photo but refused to sign a guitar..those signatures can be somehow recreated onto an instument?  SO that signed "BOB" card  and signed George harrision record I have can be somehow moved onto my WILBURY guitar signed by Petty and Lynne and have a nearly complete Wilbury and PSA or an auction house would sell it as "AUTHENTIC"?? That means MANY signed McCartney guitars may have really just been on photos to start?

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Permalink Reply by Anthony on February 25, 2015 at 2:03pm

Yes, it can be done and IS done. Keep in mind that the authenticator is looking at the autograph for authenticity NOT what the autograph is placed on. I know people that have assembled some of the rarest rock and roll autographs this way to make a complete set of each one. Another avid collector wanted to assemble autographs from each of the Beatles going back to Pete Best eara for every year the band was together. He sought out and assembled them by year piecing them together and putting them on various items for each year just to hang on his wall like a trophy. Keep in mind that the autographs themselves are authentic except they were never placed on these items by the Beatles..

Permalink Reply by Paul Hakimian on February 24, 2015 at 5:57am

This sounds so bad.if anyone has examples of this, we would all like to see it. 

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Permalink Reply by Anthony on February 24, 2015 at 3:52pm

Hi Paul, I have some examples of this but I would rather not show them as it would open a huge can of worms to the people that own them and they are very high dollar pieces. Some of the owners know about the restoration as the original seller told them but I know the others do not as it wasn't disclosed in the auction listing. I do know that on some of the pieces that signatures that were originally done in pencil were reinked to make them appear in pen as well as signatures that were on a photo that you couldn't see the signatures, just the indentation where the pen didn't take originally. Also pieces that have been cleaned up and having the smears and smudges removed from the paper or album and original inscriptions removed. Another thing that people do is take 4 separate signatures and have them placed together on a piece of paper or on an album. When holding it you would never know that they were originally on 4 separate items. The hard part about that is getting the right period date signatures of the signatures for the one piece. I have seen several Please Please Me albums that were created by actually using original signatures and placing them IN the album. When the the restorer does this the indentation from when the cut out or groove the album cover to place the original signatures inside make it appear even more real as it looks like you are actually seeing the indentation of the pen. So basically you take autographs that are REAL andd would pass ANY third party authentication like PSA and even Frank Caiazzo and are placing them on a real album that you can't even feel with your fingers because they are actually inside the album cover. Thus making your original $5,000 or 6,000 autographs now worth $30,000 and up. And it only costs you $300 to $400 to get this done. I know of a guy who bought a real Babe Ruth autographed baseball for $2,000 to $2,500 and had it reminded and had it authenticated and graded by PSA and later sold it for over $35,000. It only cost him $75 to have it reminded and another $50 to get the ball cleaned up.

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