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Authenticity is Everything
Charlton Heston - secretarials, variations & authentics (post 'em here)
This is the place for the discussion as to the follow-up for the secretarial study thread.
That thread; proposed;
The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.
Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."
In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."
and it seems to have merit. However, in looking at hundreds of Hestons of late there are many that fall into the above theory and yet quite a few variations that aren't so clean. There are no sacred cows in this thread but do keep it civil.
Bear in mind as you cascade thru the many examples below there are clearly some that fall into this, some that don't and an interesting variation.
Some commentors have been quick to point out that dealers and sellers of these items may have fallen into following a "bogus" exemplar. I will post Jan Schray's exemplars and the "secretarial" one touted here will be found in her 1997 exemplar book. Thus, without a date on COAs it's hard to tell when something was sold.
Cyrkin in the other thread opted to close it with a number of justifications; ... indisputable work. It's at risk of being adulterated by Hestons being presented as either genuine, out and out forgeries, or variations of known secretarials without the painstaking, focused research and consensus-building that made this study so valuable in the first place. That's beyond the scope of this discussion and is putting the study's clarity and integrity at risk.
I for one could not disagree with this rationale moreso. It is thru the posting of perceived hestons that either lends support, refutes or enhances the theory. I noticed the updates to the original blog include; I will note that, out a hundreds of exemplars, I found a handful of books that did not have a distinct "r" formation. My theory is these books may have been through-the-mail exemplars signed by a secretary. The reason for this could be that Mr. Heston's schedule did not allow for signing at that time or, once his illness took hold, secretaries began signing books through the mail as well as photos.
I've also noted this in same discussion with Zipper and there was a suspicion that other forgeries were apparent. it is the continued flow of questionable non-authentic items that gives strength to any theory. I'll attempt to capture the many examples before they are arbitrarily removed.
6/13/12 - Rules of the Thread;
R1 - stay on subject (don't care for moderated blogs but since owners of threads have little recourse to have comments removed at their discretion).
R2 - if you are going to post a link than at a MINIMUM post the picture of the item. The secretarial study thread has a number of links to non-existent photos. Esp Ebay ones as they have been removed by EBAY or no longer visible. If you don't know how then after you post the comment pm me and I'll capture the picture for posterity.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by DB on
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This one is the ensemble that I noted about. I first commented on it back in March '11 as it fell into the classic dbl L pattern. I was still surprised to see it was still being offered for sale.
Reply by DB Just to show we are an equal opportunity identifier - the following secretarial signed heston cut from Golden State Autographs is offered for $295.00 Yet another ensemble that offers a non authentic heston that Caleb seemingly missed;
PLANET OF THE APES
Item #461
MATTED ENSEMBLE
Signed Cards of:
KIM HUNTER
RODDY MCDOWALL
CHARLTON HESTON
(in-person)
Expertly Double-Matted
$295
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as an example to the Thread's summary last paragraph here is one that lends some credibility to the argument of secretarial. Are there other possibilities that someone could put forth that refute that argument - absolutely. But when you add in the previous dialogue, examples and discussions with the seller's explanation it does seem to add support.
Reply by DB on
& we have had the share of doubters and naysayers but it would seem that the following should finally put an end to that argument;
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on
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DB, in case I wasn't clear, nothing is going to be arbitrarily removed from Zipper's Heston discussion and anything that is removed (if anything is) is going to be saved for the original poster to use elsewhere on Live. There's no need to scan the thread to save content,.
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as you said, "the original poster" and I might not be the original poster and feel it's releveant whereas the original poster might not. If it stays like it is that I can minimze what I pull over although I have already deleted some of my posts based on your presumption.
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I only pictured a few things being removed. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer about that. Heston forgeries should for the most part be separate from the secretarials, so this is good. I think it's best to frame comments as opinion on them unless there's census they're bad.
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Sometimes Steve a commenter may not just know. Especially, with the "in person" ones as denoted above. Or those that are RPs that come out forgeries. But again, Going in, one never knows.
"consensus" around here can be like pulling teeth. But I have found when something is posted and there is no yea/nea then the Rule of Silence applies. For those who don't remember that rule - pm me.
I've refrained from posting hundred of Hestons removed from EBAY as they are the mostly classic ones unless of course there is an interesting aspect imo. I presume others do as well. If I had posted all of them we'd be up around a few hundred pages and while good for posterity we know that they are removed and the seller warned. Hopefully, we find a happy medium on this thread.
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Consensus being known variations of forgeries, secretarials and genuine examples. Each doesn't have to be "voted" on. I'd avoid using the rule of silence.
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Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on
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I've got to admit, it's nice to see all these images again. Mike's examples are still fantastic. Fantastic. Fantastic.
I hadn't realized that the ensemble piece you were talking about is still for sale. I just looked it up and it is. I'm not sure why that's out of bounds. Few dealers knew pre-2011, but this is still for sale in June of 2012. They're a good operation, so I assume it's just a site maintenance issue that they haven't skimmed through those items and deleted that piece.
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I believe it's what led to "confirming" what some have thought for along time and it was purely amazing that it appeared to be known but noone (other than Rolf) had focused on it. That study which I believe also has some Zipper examples takes some geting use to as it not as straightforward as the "Challs".
It's not out of bounds as far as I'm concerned. I try and not rationalize it as it tends to give others.. an erroneous perspective of favoritism.
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Been saying I was going to post what I believe may have given rise to "secretarial hestons". In 1997 a signature book was compiled based on over 4000 exemplars from Jan Schray. Look here up if you want to know more about this well known in-person collector. The exemplars however don't clearly distinguish who exactly provided what in the greater majority of cases as there were other contributors. Schray, as is my understanding also collected TTMs which is where she started as was miffed that celebrities allowed others to sign for them.
But, if you look at the following section it would appear to me that if these became integrated with exemplars then we have at least one focal starting point. Incidently, have chatted with an author and they too over time have felt that some may not be "authentic" as well, Having said that I found myself reflecting back on some statements from Charles Orion in his "autograph hell" book that seem to fit.
These ought to look extremely familar;
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This discussion has been recategorized under Entertainment Autographs and Memorabilia.
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DB,
Thanks for reposting Mike Sibley's genuine Hestons and the ones he calls secretarial from over a year ago. They're valuable and interesting.
I'm glad Mike piped in on the ones you had recently uploaded to the Heston Secretarial forum that you thought were forgeries. Forgeries of low priced autographs like Heston's are much less likely to be high quality. Forgers can make much more money with the same effort by honing their skills on autographs that sell for 10-100x more, so Heston forgeries that "just miss" aren't common.
In the case of the ones from yesterday, doubt was cast on legitimate autographs...even if only for a few hours. And keep in mind that because you post here a lot, people who are new or more casual readers may think your level of expertise is much higher than it actually is.
It's something I REALLY try to be careful about, because I run the site and a lot of visitors think I must be an expert. There are many forgeries I know quite well, especially in music and entertainment, because over 90% of the forgeries out there are easy to tell, so I'll give my opinions on them pretty strongly.
But there are many tougher forgeries, or genuine autographs, where I don't have a level of experience and expertise that people can depend on. In those cases, I may say what I think, but I always qualify it, cast a vote...etc. And often tell them who to go to for a dependable opinion.
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