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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 8, 2015 at 11:51am

If you define provenance the way Alan does I'm not so sure it always adds great value from  a re-sale perspective. If you can quote an item as having come directly from the Chairman of Columbia, and the item was inscribed to him (or her!), then it no doubt would enhance the value considerably but if you were just to say that a signed baseball card came from a fantastic dusty box of cards from around the same date then I doubt it would add that much value, though people may be more willing to trust that it is real. Once the individual card is sold the provenance is also more or less lost.  

Getting back to Mike T's point, there must be thousands of items with as good as cast iron provenance. For instance, a set of Beatles autographs up for auction recently was signed on the occasion of a competition winner meeting the boys to pick up her prize. The lot included all relevant letters to the prize winner, all with post-marked envelopes, several press photographs of her with the boys (one of which appeared to show Paul signing her book, the angle being bang on)  and a later magazine that included a small feature on the meeting, including another photograph of her with the boys. The autographs all looked spot-on for the date and Ringo had inscribed his autograph to the lady in question. Now, it is of course possible that the autographs were forged and put together with the other material or that somebody else signed for one or more of the boys at the time but the chances of this provenance not stacking up or the autographs not being real appear absolutely tiny.  

Short of employing forensics it is probably nigh-on impossible to prove 100% that a certain person touched or signed a piece of paper but you have to have at least some faith in the concept of "beyond reasonable doubt".

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Permalink Reply by Rock G III on April 8, 2015 at 12:12pm

Provenance is everything in the art world, But in my opinion holds little to no value in the autograph world. 

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Permalink Reply by John Kimball on April 11, 2015 at 2:23pm

Alan , have anything of Audrey Hepburn or Elizabeth taylor in your collection that you can show ?

Steve , would love to see the Al Pacino too

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Permalink Reply by John Kimball on April 11, 2015 at 2:26pm

P.s don't trust stories no matter how close the person or source maybe. E.g the Michael Bush investigation as prime example. The autograph must stand for it self.

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Permalink Reply by John Kimball on April 11, 2015 at 2:28pm

I just think the stories are a bonus if the autograph is authentic

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Permalink Reply by Rich on April 11, 2015 at 2:30pm

Yeah, I like confirming the source and circumstances in which something was signed, but it doesn't mean all that much if the autograph looks terrible and can't stand on its own.

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Permalink Reply by burneggroll on April 13, 2015 at 8:40pm

"Great provenance" obviously means a great deal to Alan. And it greatly enhances GENUINE autograph value.  

1. PROVENANCE  (origin, source)   Who signed it? Why are they famous?
2. PROVENANCE  (the history of ownership) How did you get this? Who had it before you?

A).  A fake is a fake is a fake.  B). If every expert in the world said "Appears Genuine,"  you still can not get the item into a world-class auction with no history of ownership.

With a common autograph, provenance is cute. With a rare historical autograph, provenance is essential.   I think what Alan is asking is what about the rest?

PS. The discussion here about what kinds of provenance add value to individual collectors is great!!! What kinds of history do you like your autographs to have?

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 15, 2015 at 11:00pm

At the upcoming Heritage Auction there is an incredibly long letter of provenance for a signed Beatles album. I've included the letter as an attachment and also a link to the item.

If anything, the way this letter is written would put me off buying the album rather than encourage me to buy it. It is so full of unbelievable detail and reads like an advertisement. Is it really likely that someone would have criticised the recipient for getting the album signed or that he would have responded by saying that the album might be worh something in the future? Back in 1964 I don't think anyone would have dreamt that pop star autographs would become a tradeable commodity in the fairly near future.

I'm not saying that the autographs are wrong by the way. If you wanted to be particularly sceptical you could just say that they are remarkably clean and well placed.     

Here is the link:

http://entertainment.ha.com/itm/entertainment-and-music/beatles-sig...

Attachments: No photo uploads here

• beatles waffle.jpg, 207 KB

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