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Authenticity is Everything
I have a JFK signed letter on Senate stationary, trying to get some input on it's authenticity.
In the early 50's my father was seeking and appointment to West Point, he was from Worchester Mass. His senator at the time was John F Kennedy. He was initially turned down by JFK who had already given out his quota. (that year)
In 1954 he was sponsored by his congressmen instead. But for the next following 3 years he continued to receive letters and information about Kennedy's up coming contests.This was with a packet of many items and documents, one of which I already had authenticated and sold in 2000 to Odyssey autographs.
I am well aware of the numerous secretary signatures, as well as robopens. I never thought JFK would use either for something this prestigious and since each Senator has a very small quota of only being allowed to have 5 appointees at any given time, they usually allocate their chargeable quota at each academy by appointing one candidate per year. That way, there would be four or five cadets at West Point at any one time - usually one in each class, and JKF was very serious about the Military. Anyway I scoured the internet and every book I could find on secretary sigs and robopens, I found none that resembled this one, and found the only one that did resemble it, it was JFK's signature in his book Profiles in courage. I'm simply being diligent and trying to be absolutely sure, although I really dont feel theres an issue, I did take it to a local dealer, who announced after a quick glance that it was a carbon copy because the typing and the signature are both in blue ink. He then still offered me 200.00 bucks for it. hahaha.
This letter is on watermarked Senate stationary, one page is the standard size like I have seen with others the second page is much larger, and I have never seen one like that before. I am not an expert authenticator, but common sense goes along way, I looked on the back and can clearly see impressions in several places for the signature, I examined it with a 16x loupe, you can clearly see bleeding on the paper from the ink, unintended pen marks the kind you would expect to see from a signature. And foremost I ran my little finger (its less callous and more sensitive lol) over the signature lightly and can easily feel it raised from ink.
Notice when looking at the reverse side with light behind it, not only can you tell the signature is a different color, but its much darker. Another indication it's a real signature it gets lighter and darker where its suppose to, none of that would be the case if it were a copy.
I am planning on selling the lot of documents soon, there are also 2 pages of requirements and an example test for the civil service exam that must be passed. I would appreciate any expertise I can get, please feel free to opine also.
Sincerely,
Glenn
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Randy on
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Authentic in my opinion. Kennedy did not start using autopens until around 1959 just before his Presidential run and this document pre-dates that time frame. Does not look to be secretarial either so I believe it is authentic although obviously not signed while he was President.
Are you selling it yourself or using an auction house?
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Permalink Reply by Glenn Monson on
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Hi Randy, Thanks I honestly believe it is also, Im a diligent researcher and wanted to be relatively sure it was before I tried to sell it. I appreciate your input. You know Im not sure how to sell it yet, circumstances might force me to sell it faster, business has been real slow as of late. Is it better to put it in an auction? Ive heard they tack on a hefty commission. I also am thinking I should get it appraised with the subject matter, the amount of pages, and it has historical military value, not sure if your aware but Kennedy's discussing 10 appointments to the Air Force Academy, for the year of "58", it opened in 1958 it was the first year for the Air Force Academy, so these would be the first appointments to a new academy. Any suggestions?
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If you have the time, probably consigning it to a major auction house is your best bet to maximize the selling price. Granted, you will have to pay roughly a 20% seller fee of the total realized but they would handle getting the item authenticated by either PSA/DNA or JSA. Some auction houses charge the consignor a fee for the authentication and some handle that fee on their end depending on the value of the item.
However, they give the item a lot of publicity in their printed catalog and online. The problem other than the fees involved is that you have to consign it and typically wait 3 months or so for the auction to take place and then another 45 days to receive payment.
Although I believe this is a very nice example of Kennedy's signature and it is a very nice and rare item, many collectors for high end autographs prefer one clearly signed during his relatively short period of time as President.
If you decide to sell it on your own, you will need to get it authenticated which will cost $100 or so plus shipping and insurance both ways. However, if you do that it gives the item more credibility to sell it on Ebay or a similar online site.
The value of the item depends on getting two bidders who really want it in an auction setting if you choose to go that route. My guess is the retail value to a collector would be in the $1500 to $2000 range but it certainly could bring less or more in an auction setting.
You could try to sell it on the Buy and Sell forum on this site if you know what you want for it but it would be for a set price.
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask them on this forum or email me directly. I have had both sucesses and failures with the large auction houses and the results can be hit or miss but in general they do get the highest prices for rare items.
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Wow thanks, sounds like you answered everything I was wondering and I didnt even have to ask it all. I'm new to this site and wasn't even aware there was a buy and sell section.
I'm not sure I like the sound of an auction setting, so that would leave me with getting authenticated on my own.
Is there a preferred company that collectors like to see for authentication?
I was also going to ask you about value, and wondered because I have an ebay account and have found many similar single page Senate pieces going for 2500 to 3000, I thought this would justify more, but I dont see them selling on ebay either.
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Since you are in California, I would suggest using PSA/DNA. They are in Newport Beach and are considered one of the top two 3rd party authenticators with JSA in New Jersey being the other one.
As to value, you cannot use the buy it now prices on Ebay that never sell to determine value. You have to try and find at least one similar item that actually sold. However, if there is only one sale it doesn't really mean much either but if there are a few sales an average of them will provide a good idea of true value.
Again, Kennedy autographs depending on strength and medium typically go for $1500 to $2500 as a retail price to a collector.
You can always list it on Ebay with whatever price you think it is worth and see if you get a hit. You can also list it and get a PSA/DNA "Quick Opinion" on the autograph for $10. Keep in mind there is no guarantee they will authenticate it if submitted for the full opinion even if they opine "Likely Genuine" but they will give an opinion of "Likely Genuine", "Likely Not Genuine", or "Unable to render an Opinion" from a high resolution picture.
That would be a good first step in determining authenticity with little expense. I think it is authentic but I am certainly not an expert on Kennedy's autograph. I simply look at authenticated ones by these companies and compare them to yours and use a little common sense that it is unlikely Kennedy would have had these items secretarily signed.
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Newport beach huh, I'm only about 40 minutes from there if the is traffic is good.
I want to thank you for taking the time to explain all this to me, it really is a big help. I realized the asking prices I saw on ebay didn't mean that's what they were getting for them. Truth be told I havnt seen anything on ebay selling as of late.
But I have scoured the internet and other auction houses and autograph companies, and you are spot on for retail price with only two exceptions which I cant explain, a couple places had the most exorbitant prices I've ever seen reaching 30 and 40 thousand dollars with no exceptional subject matter and one page signed Jack,
Have you ever heard of this outfit in vegas? check their JFK listings and prices its ridiculous. http://www.historyforsale.com/html/search.asp?signerinid=13265
I came upon this site looking for the place I sold my other JFK document to in 2000 It was called Odyssey autographs and memorabilia in Corona,Ca. Apparently I just found out they got acquired by collectors universe, which also owns PSA/DNA you told me about. Since they authenticated my first one for free and bought it from me outright I might be able to do it again.
Anyway I'm thinking I'll just list it on here for now, and look into the quick check from them.
Thanks again for taking the time to explain things to me, cant tell you how much I appreciate it.
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Permalink Reply by Trevor Song on
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In my case, I had my JFK checked out twice (someone reputable and PSA/DNA) and both came back with an opinion as likely genuine. It's now encased in a PSA protector. Mine is very different from yours. One of the things different about mine is that it has a J in cursive - compared to that check mark J he used on many occasions.
I don't think there are a lot of experts on here willing to divulge their opinions on JFK. Lately I've been trying to find an example of mine in the various book studies on JFK, none of which I have. It's always great to have a documented example IMO. Not sure if it JFK autograph variants are trade secrets or what, but I have emailed some people who appear to be leads in the field and one person outright refused to help me locate a similar documented example.
Don't list this on ebay just yet. I say just get this autograph checked by PSA/DNA first. I think that's all that will matter in the long run - and more peace of mind that you got it checked by the one of the leading third party authenticator in the market.
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Thanks Trevor for the input, I was definitely not going to put it on ebay.
I dont know if you can see the other comments or not but I had sold one in 2000 from the same packet as this to a auction house in Corona, Ca. called odyssey autographs who apparently got acquired by collectors universe which also owns PSA/DNA.
I went to their website and found a couple photos of signatures they posted as authentic, it looks spot on with mine I think. Bottom one is mine.
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I'm certainly no expert in the field, but they look sort of similar in style. I am aware of around three books/guides about JFK autographs alone. One must wonder, which is the definitive one to get?
I saw some interesting videos from the University Archive on youtube about JFK autographs. Here are the links to parts one and two (incase you didn't watch them).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGt5TpneztU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67zeWGGxppQ
It certainly doesn't help the situation much that JFK had autopens and secretaries that signed his name.
I conclude from everything I read and heard that JFK autographs vary so much over his lifetime. You should see my thread about the JFK autograph I own. One person appears suspicious of the one I own. My feeling is if PSA/DNA and the other person I had examine it gave an opinion that appears genuine, then I have reason to conclude they both saw similar examples to my autograph before.http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/jfk-autograph-1
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