Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Wendy Christine on November 19, 2012 at 11:50pm

I have no history with Debbie. I've never even met her before this evening. I'm here speaking for logic and truth only. I'm a lover, not a fighter. I was invited here through an article written which states the examples of Michael Jackson's signatures in an upcoming auction in Beverly Hills, California were unknown to someone practiced in the field of appraising signatures. I agree. Anyone in the field of appraising or selling signatures would not be blindsided or bamboozled by this obvious manifestation of forgery by the hundreds.

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Permalink Reply by MICHELLE JAY on November 20, 2012 at 9:43pm

Wendy:

This is an excellent comment that I think SUMS the situation up quite well:

"Anyone in the field of appraising or selling signatures would not be blindsided or bamboozled by this obvious manifestation of forgery by the hundreds."

BRILLIANT!!!

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Christine on November 20, 2012 at 10:38pm

Thank you sis, that's how I see it.

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Permalink Reply by DB on November 20, 2012 at 3:23am

@cyrkin; ya think;  http://www.examiner.com/article/fans-want-to-stop-michael-jackson-c...

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on November 20, 2012 at 10:18am

I'm aware of their enthusiasm, DB. But I think they're right about the autographs. I just want to make sure there isn't convincing evidence hiding out there that these in Julien's auction are real.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on November 20, 2012 at 10:12am

Team M,

While I think you and Wendy are right that most of the Michael Jackson autographs in the Tompkins & Bush sale are not genuine (I'm open to being shown they are real, but I haven't seen any evidence of that yet), there is much more going on here than just the autographs. 

For years, you and other fans have been quite upset with Julien's and Bush for selling much of the memorabilia they've sold, and other things. From the little I know, you believe it's against Michael Jackson's wishes and not fair to his children. I'm sure I'm not stating things 100% correctly, so I apologize. 

I have no issue with you being concerned about that. I can see how much it troubles you and some other major Michael Jackson fans. But I'm worried that the hard feelings could taint this discussion and cause it to be taken less seriously. 

It's important for all, Wendy, you and Debbie, to focus on the autographs and not the other issues. That's what I mean about having history, sorry.

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Permalink Reply by Charlotte Stanley on November 21, 2012 at 10:17am

I agree. Im a huge fan too but its a fact,his items have been sold through out history even when Michael was here. He gave items to charities to auction and he gave many items to fans, sick children, family, friends. It all doesnt have to stay in one place. I agree it would be nice to have a museum one day. I would hope collectors would loan items to that. That is our dream- yes. But I agree with you. The discussion here is not the selling of the items its the autographs themselves. Get The Point! Good- lets dance!

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on November 19, 2012 at 11:25pm

I have just spent over 3 hours looking at Michael Jackson authentic exemplars and many examples done by known forgers, and handwriting from members of the Jackson Crew and front office who have been said to have signed for him throughout the years, In all my research I am unable to come up with a signature were the letters, shapes, angles, even come close to the signatures in question.

I also agree with Steve Cyrkin in that in no way do I believe that Julien's would be involved in any type of fraud or knowingly selling fake autographs. I have spent a lot of time reviewing the whole catalog for this auction and it is not all the autographs in the auction come into question. There are many signed items that do not match any known exemplar of Michael Jackson's autograph. I also believe that many of the signatures in question have been signed by the same hand. For the past two years I have been continuously collecting exemplars and looking for additional exemplars and variations of Michael Jackson's autograph.

From the beginning of this discussion I stated that there is a serious problem here and it is a big concern to many people in the hobby. It is just to early to call and explain, it is not a slam dunk that everything in question is not authentic. There are some autographs that are authentic and some that are questionable but I do see some autographs listed that I would have to say in my professional opinion were not signed by Michael Jackson. TeamMichael777 has made the best case and has one of the most interesting theories in Michael Bush signing the items in question. I am going to be examining and braking down the signatures to see of this may be the case.

Here are some of the examples of Michael Bush's signature and an early Michael Jackson signed photo to Michael Bush and Dennis Tompkins that looks to follow some of the patterns of the questionable signatures.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Darren Ruskin, III on November 20, 2012 at 1:57am

These signatures are all really bad - yes we all agree on that. I think it is rather funny that such a large and well known auction house has an entire catalogue that probably cost them in the 60 to 70,000 pound range - maybe even more to photograph, catalogue, inventory, author, layout, print four color, post to the web, distribute, advertise, ship portions of the items to other countries for viewing, etc. without knowing a thing about what they are offering. really funny and will go down as one of the classic blunders of the decade in music collectible auctions. you may want to order your physical copy of this catalogue now. it is an instant classic - one who's equal we may never see again.

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Permalink Reply by Justin on November 20, 2012 at 3:30am

thank you everyone here especially Wendy Christine for highlighting this serious situation !

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Permalink Reply by Michael Frost on November 20, 2012 at 7:40am

I have stayed up an entire night examining, researching and to figure out professionally what is going on here and what is the best way of handling the situation. I do not get paid for this and I am not looking for anything at all, I just want you to know I do this for the love of the autograph hobby, my great admiration for Michael Jackson and for his true loving fans.

The problems can not be addressed properly when a fan from the word (fanatic) has an agenda and will not let this discussion develop probably. As DB has added there is a large group of Michael Jackson fan's the want this auction stopped at any cost. The reason is the fan's go not believe that The Michael Jackson custom's and personal items should ever be sold. They believe they should be preserved in a museum to be shared and enjoyed by all. I understand this and agree, I believe that would be the way Michael would of wanted it.

Unfortunately that is not the project we are working on and I do not believe that this forum is the place for that campaign. We are working on and investigating the case that this auction may likely have a number of Michael Jackson autographs that are not authentic. That is the discussion that has been brought before us and there are many professional and knowledgeable respected autograph experts that will not join in or add there input because of the negative cause this and many other discussions have been taking.

Do you think Julien's Autions would stop their auction or even consider hearing this discussion when they see and hear the crazy statements and fan based fighting that has been brought into this important matter.

I have received some crazy negative e-mails and I would also think that Steve and some others have also. I would just say for the sake of this discussion and for the love of Michael Jackson that you should remove that most ridiculous link to Ripoff.com. I have been in this industry for many years and I have to say of all the crazy and ridiculous things that I have seen and sometimes have even been a part of this takes the cake. There is not a person with any knowledge of this industry that for one minute would believe that John Reznikoff would ever write, post or think any of the lies that are stated in that report against Steve Cyrkin.

That report should be removed from this discussion and from your face book page simply because it is embarrassing to you and anyone that reads it. It causes this discussion to loss all credibility and it also and most importantly stops professionals like John Reznikoff, PSA/DNA, JSA, and other respected names from joining into this discussion and maybe making a case to stop or remove some of the items in question from this auction.   

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Permalink Reply by Michelle on November 20, 2012 at 7:59am

I agree. We need to keep this on track.

On Julien's website it says that purchasers of memorabilia and autographs should find an items provenance and we should research to find out the entire story behind the autograph's and clothing. This is what I am trying to do.

Let's stop making this so personal against each other - lets get to the bottom of this nagging question of authenticity.

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