Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by JPC3342 on December 26, 2012 at 8:33pm

Up above is an AUTHENTIC piece of paper I got signed myself when I ran into Michael Jackson in Wycoff, New Jersey probably around 2007 when he was staying at the "Cascio families" house who which lived a town next door to my cousins area Oakland, New Jersey. Of course later on I got other items signed as well after stalking for a while especially that the area was very private and no one knew he was even there.

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Christine on December 26, 2012 at 9:08pm

Very nice.  And lucky you :)  

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Permalink Reply by JPC3342 on December 26, 2012 at 9:45pm

Thanks. lol

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Christine on December 26, 2012 at 9:16pm

Hi everyone,

LISTEN: As Steve stated earlier, I don't believe there were two forgers.  Certainly NOT for the Bush examples we have been researching, studying and comparing for 6-7+ weeks!!!   

To my eye the examples Michelle and I found on pages 171, 172, 174 and 175
http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/michael-jackson-sign...  (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 on Michelle's list which could be of another hand) as well as examples like the Captain EO shirt posted by MJ-fan-1965 are all Bush and ALL show classic, obvious "tell" traits / characteristics of Michael Lee Bush.

All the traits that Steve mentioned are there.  

The long amateur tails TM pointed out on the M and N.  Those ridiculous amateur loop N's. Those ungraceful J's with the clunky half-circle outer swoop and awkward inner swoop.  Bush's OWN signature compares.  Michael Lee Bush's tell-tale characteristics are evident on that Thriller jacket and HUNDREDS of other items $$$$Sold on Dec. 2nd and previous Juliens auctions.

PLEASE lets not forget all that we just studied, visually compared and PROVED regarding the Dec. 2nd Sell Off.

As Steve stated, after much studying all of the signatures together, including ALL the now additionally found clear Bush forgeries (my word, not Steve's) from past juliens auctions - I am EXTREMELY CONFIDENT and POSITIVE that BUSH FORGED THE THRILLER JACKET.

Sadly Bush has been at this for 3+ years now.  He's been "mixing it up" and "evolving" his MJ sig - as sickening as it makes me to say that.  The thought of Tompkins as a possible other signer crossed my mind, and I weighed it.  But in studying the hundreds of signatures still and yet again over these weeks - I ruled Tompkins out.  Based on the clear Bush characteristics - his subconscious "tells".

There are CERTAINLY other MJ forgers in the world as we have recently been discovering from julien's past auctions (the hat and possibly the shirt found by Michelle; the Bad era jacket and 2 tickets found by me - it's unsure who signed those, other than it wasn't MJ!)  Darren has CERTAINLY been selling (occasional) other forgers as well as Bush's.

But Bush is the MASS FORGER here, within the Julien's auction forum.

P.S. - Steve, last week I made a single file composite of all my comparisons.  I wish we could upload it b/c it seems we are forgetting what Bush's forgery characteristics are.  But with the "copyright" thing, I don't know if we can....?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 27, 2012 at 1:40am

Hi Wendy,

I'm blown away with what your team is finding. Roger doesn't agree that both major autograph styles were signed by the same forger. He knows far more than I'll ever know about music autographs, and autographs period, so I think it's important to consider the jury still out for the time being. Everyone's welcome to their opinions though.

Since we're not handwriting experts, let's all remember not to state as a fact that Bush signed any of the forgeries. Even though it seems obvious to many of us, it's only our opinion. I think it's only fair to express it that way.

Please email the composite to me at editor@autographmagazine.com and I'll see if it can be uploaded here. 

Thanks...great job,

Steve

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Permalink Reply by MJ-fan-1965 on December 27, 2012 at 3:00am

I agree with Roger.

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Christine on December 27, 2012 at 4:17am

Thanks Steve,

Yes statements are absolutely our opinions.  Bush is the MASS FORGER here.. in my opinion based upon weeks of studying those hundreds of signed items in the latest Juliens-Bush sale - before that on eBay, then in analyzing Bush's own signature from his book signings, and now looking at items in previous Juliens auction catalogs.

I think it couldn't hurt to look through the Dec. 2nd Juliens-Bush catalog again, at all of the hundreds of mass produced, in my opinion, blatant MJ signature forgeries on everything from Michael's iconic clothing to an empty can of stain remover. 

In my opinion, the Michael's Pets stuffed animals on pages 50-51 show several examples of signatures that closely resemble the signature on the Thriller jacket. Also Lot 661 is another good example.  Then there are all of the examples in the catalogs of sigs on tour jackets and the like, with those long tails.  For me, the J and the N are unique indicators of Michael Lee Bush, as well as the long tails.. but really the entire shaping of the signatures.  Those are the factors I wanted to refresh ourselves by looking at again.  They have been the guiding characteristics that I believe many of us have been in agreement about seeing on these hundreds of signed items for several weeks.

Putting the Thriller jacket aside for further study and research, and just being able to see Bush's, in my opinion, forgeries which I really thought were clearly screaming out to us, in agreement.

I want justice to be done based on the facts, whatever they turn out to be.  And I want the law to take its just course now.

That is what matters here.  In my opinion.

Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by roger epperson on December 27, 2012 at 6:43am

I have never stated who I think signed any of these and I don't believe I ever will.  Thats not the point here.  The point is they are not authentic and without question signed by two different people.  The earlier ones are much better than the ones that were in the Bush auction I think.

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Permalink Reply by TeamMichael777 on December 27, 2012 at 7:55pm

Roger initially my pinion was that there are two forgers, but if you look at the toys forged, the 2nd forger matches those of the first, these toys  were in Bush's possession, i doubt if Bush purchased them signed, To me the tell tale sign is the long tail on the M and N, plus others which are only present in most recent batch sold on Dec 2nd. As for Bush he is in it deep without having to prove the earlier ones are from him, the only way to prove he is behind those is to see who consigned them to Juliens. Oh Yeah, IN MY OPINION.. lmao... Thank you Wendy, Michelle,  for all the hours put into researching, Roger when you have time please take a closer look at the other items known to be consigned by Bush. I know we are not going to agree on everything, thats ok, so long as we can agree to disagree :-)

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Christine on December 28, 2012 at 3:32am

TeamMichael, thank you sweetheart.  I know you are stating that you don't believe there might have been another signer (even after you initially thought there may be) based most certainly on what I told you in a recent email about seeing some of the "Thriller style" signatures in the Dec. 2nd auction (which you have shown above on the Michael's Pets).

PLEASE know that I have sadly in the past day been shown something (video) that has made me question the possiblity of Tompkins AT LEAST knowing about the forgeries, if not possibly having signed in one of the two styles we have all noticed.  (see my latest post on this blog for more info on that).

Anyway, I do still see consistent characteristics in all of the signatures.  BUT: I AM NOT A SIGNATURE EXPERT. 

I TRULY don't know how many people or hands produced these hundreds of horrible fake MJ signatures.

IF however Tompkins or WHOEVER signed in one of the two forged styles - I think it's possible that the reason we are seeing less of the "Thriller style" signs in this last auction could be because IF Tompkins did them, maybe they were "leftovers" from before he died that Bush threw into the Dec. 2nd sell off.

Again, thanks for showing these.  I felt frustrated because I thought I couldn't show these examples (because of Darren's copyright claim).

I know we all just want justice here.

Thanks T.

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 28, 2012 at 6:42am

The style of forgery on the Thriller jacket dates back to fall 2009. The main style of forgery in the Tompkins and Bush sale dates back to 2010. No matter who signed them, millions rolled into the household over the years from them. They both had to know.

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Permalink Reply by Wendy Christine on December 28, 2012 at 7:28am

Agreed.

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