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PSA/DNA Certified Items - Right or Wrong

Not being a dealer or auctioneer I am perfectly suited to referee this discussion if need be. This section is mostly for Items that PSA/DNA has certified that in an opinion of authenticators has missed the mark (AND NOT as far as they know been corrected) along with any other items of significance.

In some cases the certification provided might be a simple rejection while in other cases it's certifying it as authentic when it may be far from it.

The thread is not about the good, the bad or ugly of 3rd parties as there is already an excellent thread in the forum on this started by R&R's Bobby Livington that everyone should follow. That thread alone has produced three disccusions on Farrah Fawcett, Elvis, and now this.

Hopefully, AM members will follow this thread (I am sure the fraudsters & propaganda machines will) and point others to it - Perhaps, the owners of the item that is cited. Those owners can then deal with the authentication firm or sellers and report back their journey.

Since I don't expect the PSA/DNAs of the world to come online and defend/refute (althugh the have an open invitation) the postings then be advised this is not a thread to speculate, accuse, or otherwise besmirch what is or what isn't being done.

So 'nuff said and on with the items. To keep discussions focused and contained - Each Item contributors need to stay in the realm of that item so commentary is not all over the place.

remember if you post an item denote the PSA/DNA number on their sticker... One, if they choose can also validate the item's number on the PSA/DNAs database to see if it is in fact a product of PSA/DNA as we have heard that the fraudsters are/have created bogus ones and report your findings here.

Tags: certification, certifications, errors, forgeries, psa, psa/dna

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 6, 2011 at 5:46pm

here is an ebay seller;

Member id benandsavy1 ( 181

)

who is selling quite a few GAI sport items. When I inquired of a Terry Francona item; with cert number GV326376.

he responded that the "authenticator" is Mike Baker director of authentication - so perhaps he doesn't know. I did as suggested above but am surprised as he seems to have sold a number of GAI items and would have thought that Steve et all would have headed him off at the pass already.

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 7, 2011 at 3:53am

Going to post this here and over on the EBAY watch list as I have some trouble buying this response to how he acquired his inventory of GAI items. Since attending training camp is a possibility there are one too many questions.... we'll see if there is any follow-thru as Brandon now has a head's up -

me and my friends had all the balls signed at spring training we did over 500 balls gai had mike come out and certified them at the camp. i will call gai and see if they can redo them for me thanks again

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Permalink Reply by Mike Miller on December 30, 2010 at 8:50pm

Travis,

I will say you make a valid point here. I think the future ideal authentication service will be comprised of specialists within very specific niches. There are a few now, like astronauts (think his name is Cornish or like that),
Walt Disney (Phil Sears). But, I also find it puzzling how someone who
collects or specializes in vintage Hollywood can also maintain an expertise on
modern day celebs like Spears, Tom Cruise, Angelina, etc. Or Sport guys like PSAs Steve Grad can switch from Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig to John Wayne or Judy Garland (even though the couple times Grad did a vintage Hollywood piece for me I was actually impressed he was right on)

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on January 5, 2011 at 7:12am

Have you ever seen an authenticator doing his work at a live show? Where the items can range from historic to modern entertainment then to baseball to opera. over and over again and there is just one or a few guys that are making opinions on everything?

A while back, one expert was trying to authenticate 2009-2010 signed Dale Earnhardt Jr and Jimmie Johnson items against a database of Dale Jr and Jimmie Johnson signatures from 2002-2004. The differences in these signatures from then to now is WAYYYYY too broad. With modern pieces, it takes a constant injection of fresh material in order to stay on top of the possible variations and pattern changes.

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Permalink Reply by john reznikoff on December 30, 2010 at 9:19pm

Travis,
I feel pretty confident with 15 on this small list. I cannot speak for the others but know Grad has incredible range and a most always dead on in what he looks at.

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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on December 31, 2010 at 2:52pm

Just posted a new thread, John Wayne case study with PSA examples and would appreciate your input.

http://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/calling-all-john-way...

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on January 6, 2011 at 7:08am

Travis,

While you may not claim to be an "authenticator" for your specific genre range, I sure hope you understand that you ARE an expert in the area. The information you have is obviously needed and loaded with value.

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 6, 2011 at 7:18am

I am not sure I would be ready to declare someone an expert -vs- knowledgeable opinionator in a specific area especially when it comes to signatures. They would certainly not be recognized by a court of law (as we have found with Mark Ogren argument).

An expert is someone widely recognized as a reliable source of or skill whose faculty for judging or deciding rightly, justly, or wisely is accorded authority and status by their peers or the public in a specific well-distinguished domain according to wiki.

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Permalink Reply by Brandon Mysinger on January 6, 2011 at 1:37pm

I suppose we must always remember the going PC phrase of the moment is "expert" opinion. Unless that changed today.

With autographs, we can have experts for every genre all the way down to an expert on just one person's signature. The door is wide open for the right person/people to walk through. Granted, they have to survive the trials of vetting. But that's not difficult if one knows his/her "stuff" in their area of expertise.

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 6, 2011 at 7:12am

so essentially what you are saying is that for anyone who doesn't specialize in a specific genre and for that matter a limited set within that genre there is significant risk?

I do however concur that it would be extremely difficult for any business model to work within that constraint. Doesn't matter to me if they are specialists or "generalists" so long as they do the best job they can and fix the problems when they are brought to their attention.

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Permalink Reply by DB on January 6, 2011 at 2:51pm

They won't become "experts" as expert is a legal definition but they will become knowledgeable about a given signature but not all knowing. Like the Ali signature you cited - it didn't fit your exemplars but as Steve said it was done at a signing he thinks with Grad present. Won't be the first time that an exemplar doesn't fit.

I am not sure if your numbers of 1/2 to 20k signatures is real or not but I suspect that the process you outline is just that (except for the distribution). In a business, you don't become reliant on one person but rather put in a system that works while training the individuals to use that system.

New England Patriots is a good example of a system and not dependent on any one individual except perhaps the QB but Brady plays in a system and would be the first to tell you that.

The reason why I reject the loose usage of experts that this industry likes to tout is because I am very knowledgeable to give an opinion about Tom Brady signatures/inscriptions but I would not consider myself an expert.