Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on October 30, 2012 at 5:38pm

Is he an authenticator?  I was under the impression that he was a dealer who trusted the wrong person who sold him a bunch of Michael Jackson autographs.  How long does it take AFTAL to authenticate the items and do they plan on making a statement?  Perhaps AFTAL can reveal if the items are still being sold in the UK.  These are all reasonable concerns that in no way "muck or tarnish" anyone so perhaps professionals in the UK who care about this hobby will be willing to address them.  If not we can only make our own conclusions based on what has transpired.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on October 31, 2012 at 4:48am

Mike, i beleive he has done enormous amounts of good work as Authentication fakes for ebay.

He has closed a few sellers accounts in the UK, so I do beleive he is a Authenticator and very good at it

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on October 31, 2012 at 5:57am

Thanks Gary.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on October 31, 2012 at 9:20am

Mike, he is a good guy and unfortunate cicumstances have led to this, he has been sent up **** creek without a paddle

I know he has given a lot of his own time in this also, shutting down NO MARKS who sell fakes

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on October 31, 2012 at 10:01am

I believe that he is a good guy.  Many including Steve have said as much.  If I remember correctly he refunded money to people who purchased the items immediately.  I think that people are just concerned that there may still be items being sold that are not authentic and they would like to know what the status of the investigation is.  If the investigation is ongoing and people are unable to comment on it that is understandable.  If the investigation is closed and people are not willing to report that it is closed then that is unacceptable.  Thanks again for keeping us updated to the best of your knowledge.  I hope that everything works out for the best. 

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on October 31, 2012 at 10:56am

Mike,

im at a loss with other stuff being posted on here about AFTAL, but Im sure Garry has refunded and probably out of pocket now as he will have the Jacksons returned to him.

From what I see there is no investigation, they have been passed as Authentic

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on October 31, 2012 at 11:35am

I can't speak for others.  I am mostly interested to see how the system works to protect collectors.  If the Michael Jacksons are in fact authentic I would like to see it explained in the same way that Roger explained his opinion of them not being authentic.  Most of us are just collectors who care about the hobby and the only thing that concerns us is the truth.  I don't care if they are authentic or not.  I just want to know the truth.  I suppose at this point the two sides should just agree to disagree but that does not serve collectors if Roger is correct and the Michael Jackson autographs in question continue to be sold.  If Roger is wrong then it is unfair to the dealers that will not be selling the pieces as a result.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Ours is a crazy hobby. 

It's been a pleasure chatting with you Gary.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on October 31, 2012 at 12:12pm

Mike,

Can I ask you this as it has not been mentioned up to now

Let us say you owned a Jackson that you bought from one of Adrians distributors or in fact Adrian himself

You decide in 2 years to sell the item , for profit or for money being short / whatever reason

First senario ...

You sell the item and the buyer asks a Reputable Dealer for their opinion as a back up to your sale, it is checked by the Dealer.

He  advises that in his opinion with all the fuss and who ha surrounding the Jacksons, he will not pass a judgement or states in his opinion the item is NOT Authentic

It would then be returned to you as the buyer would not risk the purchase

Senario 2

Again you want to sell the item, you offer the signed Jackson item into any Auction House on this planet.

They will investigate its Authenticity, from their known examples, perhaps even asking a Authenticator i.e Roger Epperson et all

He passes his opinion that he beleives the item to NOT Authentic, the Auction House would return the item to you, as they would not Risk the sale

Senario 3

You sell the Jackson to someone on the street or via ebay / advert etc etc, somewhere along the line either next year or 10 years time the buyer decides to take up Senario 1 or 2

The buyer will come back to you and want a refund

Never Ending Story .....................

This will never go away, and no one seems to relaise this.

How many people have bought these items that are now being questioned ?

Everytime someone offers to sell one to a Reputable Dealer he will check for Authenticity and it goes around again.

Its very scary and Im glad to state I dont have anything to do with it

What are you thought Mike ?

 

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on October 30, 2012 at 5:47pm

I would say it does affect him as an MJ authenticator. You really think it doesn't? Guess you don't need to be well versed in autographs to authenticate. Just cause you sell millions of them doesn't necessarily make you an expert authenticator.

Who exactly does Gary specialize in authenticating? I'm curious.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on October 31, 2012 at 9:22am

Rick

I know Garry has helped close a lot of Bad Sellers / Dealers here in the UK via Ebay.

He has helped the buisness here , its just unfortunate with reference to the Jacksons.

He beleived his source and he has stated that he was not fully told the truth upon purchase

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Permalink Reply by DB on October 31, 2012 at 2:22am

fair points.   btw, brandon simply reasked the same question he asked earlier in the thread perhaps with a bit more flair but the same question.

recall, that adrian appeared with all these claims then deleted his post shortly thereafter and ran away as he wasn't expecting Roger to pop up.  However an AML member had captured it and posted it for posterity...   then Garry posted with rationalizations and some straightforward statements... Here are a few excerpts from this thread (I have the original thread as well);

To sum up, Adrian has stated that those items were signed in the months before MJ died, was with other known collectors when he obtained them, and has video and photo images to show he was there etc, so I think it must be up to them to let us see that evidence.

If these MJ items are wrong, then I am happy to hold my hands up and admit it. None of us are perfect, especially within this vast field of autographs, that is partly why Roger concentrates on music alone, but even so, If I gave Roger say a Humprey Bogart to authenticate, I am confident in saying that he could do the job because he knows how to authenticate in the correct way. By the same token, I could not think of any dealer who has not at some time unknowingly sold a fake item, its one of those things that can and always will happen, its how we deal with it that counts. 

I want to get to the bottom of this so that we will all know for sure what and where those MJ's came from (and others too).   The drugs thing was not a defence, i was merely putting forward a possible reason why they may be different, nothing more. You cannot simply only look at the points you want to include, you have to look at the whole picture and base the verdict on that...

I spent some time on the phone with Roger early this morning, and he has already sent over hi res exemplars that he suggested i use. They all come from the right period, which is what i said i needed before it is possible to do any comparisons.

I am looking at the MJ's from Roger now, always very interesting when you start comparing a quatity of genuine signatures. Never fails to amaze me how they can look so different, and yet under close scrutiny all be so alike.

There are certainly forgers here as there are everywhere (and sadly always will be), and if they have indeed infiltrated any dealers, and it does look that way at this moment, then we will certainly be taking some swift action.

and then it went silent!  We were all told it will be on display.  Appears nothing was apparently displayed or reviewed at autograpfica as reported from a number of different sources and on UK forums someone who wouldn't identify themselves started posting "legal briefs".  

Garry did address his views on his "authenticating" back on page 3 for those interested. Garry said, "I could go on, but this post is already too long. Always happy to answer questions directly if need be".

While it's not fair to throw Garry completely under the bus the criticism on such silence is as many keep asking questions and noone "publically" is getting any response or the alleged evidence it seems.

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Permalink Reply by Gary Harvey on October 31, 2012 at 4:58am

Thanks DB for re clarifiying earlier posts.

I didnt attend the AFTAL show, I have my reasons why I didnt go, some I have posted on here previously

But I was under the impression the proof to show Adrian collecting the Michael Jackson autographs would be shown. Maybe no one went and asked to see the proof ?

Maybe no one is interested anymore ?

Can anyone clarify ... Are these Jackson Autographs still being sold anywhere in UK or the World ?

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