Comment by Mike M. on October 23, 2012 at 12:41pm

DB - Not saying your guess is correct or incorrect, but those sure look like they might match up.

Steve - That would be the hard part.  Not sure how you prove fraud when you have no other history of the item being sold (with testimonies of others telling the seller that he is selling a known fraud)and the owner will just deny deny deny as stated in the terms.  So I will look into my possible low budget alternatives you all have offered to me...and thanks again.

Comment by CJCollector on October 23, 2012 at 5:08pm

Mike, do you think I posted this thread because for entertainment purposes?  I have written numerous blogs on Drew Max and the garbage he has authenticated.

Mike, check out a few of my previous blogs on Drew Max.

http://live.autographmagazine.com/profiles/blogs/drew-max-forensic-...

http://live.autographmagazine.com/profiles/blogs/drew-max-forensic-...

At this point, Mike, I really don't care if you get your money back, but I hope you will refund the buyer's money. 

When it comes to forgeries, buyers are half the problem.  I've been saying that for years.  If it wasn't for buyers purchasing crap like that Babe Ruth, the sellers of forgeries would be out of business.

Comment by Mike M. on October 24, 2012 at 7:21am

-Christopher.  You focused on the "entertainment" part of my statement (just like a child or argumentative girlfriend does)...how about re-focusing and looking at the entire sentence.  OR how about feeling good about posting a blog that I also said is for "LEARNING" purposes.  It is a FACT that all blogs are either (or both) for entertainment/educational/awareness purposes.  The mere fact that you took what I said, focused on the one part that could be somewhat offensive (without taking into consideration the word right next to it) and then acted like I was attacking your person is just childish.  I answered and responded to this blog because i didn't want anyone thinking I am out to rip anyone off.  The buyer is in fact sending the card back to me and I am and will gladly issue the full refund.  I have no problem doing so...heck like I said before I even sent the buyer a link to this website so she could have all of the evidence I am/was privy to. 

I FULLY appreciate all of the advice and rhetoric back and forth on this blog and all the other blogs I perused while on this site.  I even signed up for this site so I could "LEARN" more about the art/hobby of autograph collecting so that neither I nor my potential customer get "ripped off" in any way. 

When it comes to forgeries how can you blame the seller and buyer 50%?  I understand I was half the transaction, but we as buyers can only go by what the so called professionals have said about ANY item...and then try to form our opinion from that.  Now yes it is my fault that I didn't have the knowledge about Drew Max that some of you who have been collecting autographs for years have, but is that to say that everything he has ever authenticated is not genuine (probably not)?  In addition are you going to say that the victim of a rape or burglery or purse snatching is 50% responsible too?  Heck it doesn't even have to be a physical crime...how about the people who invested in Enron or the little old woman who's life savings was sucked away because the equity trader (who worked for a reputable company) decided he wanted to go over to the dark side, stole all her money and moved to Mexico?  Are we blaming these people at 50% too?  Using your same idealistic views the women in the rape case were wearing to provocative of clothing, the people in the burglery case had too many nice items in their home, the purse snathing scenarion the person had too nice a purse or showed some cash while paying for an item, the person who was defrauded was just too trusting of the equities trader (as was the company the trader worked for I guess).  The idea I am trying to get across here is that sometimes there are just bad people out there...we as good people are just trying to educate/protect ourselves the best way we can.  Sometimes our knowledge/awareness come up short as human beings and we get taken advantage of.  I made a huge mistake in trusting the wrong so called professional's opinion on an item that my wife absolutely loved.  I will take the blame for buying the item AND for being a good husband.  Don't ask why I was selling the card either...I was selling because everyone has come across hard times and this just happens to be one of those times for us....blah blah blah everyone knows about it and everyone has come across said times.   

So let me just say Christopher (before you go off into a rant and start defacing my character)...i did not come on here to argue/make enemies or play games.  I REALLY appreciate you posting blogs for EDUCATIONAL purposes.  These blogs are instrumental in my (and a lot of people's) learning process.  I in no way am trying to question your authority or reasons for posting blogs and educating the public.

I do not want to get into a war of words because i do not feel I am trying to argue, but rather defend the bold and broad statements thrown right at me by Christopher.  How about this...lets move past this and agree how wonderful it is that we as a society have a medium such as the internet and people like Christopher to take time out of their day to help us all learn and try to keep safe the art/hobby/business of collecting authentic autographs.  I want to personally thank Christopher and everyone on this board who has either read or responded to this blog.  Thank you! 

Comment by Peter leone on October 24, 2012 at 7:56am

Mike M- I've said it before and I will say it again, I give you 100% credit for coming on here and doing the right thing by 1) stating your case and 2) By issuing a refund and letting your buyer know she bought a bad signature. You almost never see a seller come on to a site like this and face the facts. In most cases the seller knows what they are selling is bad and take the money and run to the bank. You did the right thing.

I think what happens sometimes when reading a post that things can look worse than they actually are meaning it's easy to take thinks out of context. I do think that you as a buyer/seller should do your homework a little just to get some background on an item such as a high price Babe Ruth signature. At the end of the day would you walk into a car dealership and just point at a car and say I want that car right there because it looks nice without test driving it or checking out the safety record of the car?

This is by no means an attack on you so don't take it the wrong way.

I do understand your point about the little old lady being robbed etc and being 50% in the wrong but I think the point Chris was trying to make is if buyers just did a little homework on what they are buying then it will help combat this whole issue the hobby is having.

You did the right thing by making it right after learning of the situation and at the end of the day that's all that matters..

Comment by Mike M. on October 24, 2012 at 8:20am

Thank you Peter...well said.  In regards to the car scenario...good example...not quite exact, but neither were mine.  Ok to try to lighten up the mood.  How about this for an example...The Dallas Cowboys have been defrauding the Cowboys' fans for years.  Jerry Jones tries to sell to the public that the product he has is different than it actually is.  He believes it is real; however, in reality he is only trying to put butts in the seats to pad his own wallet.  So we as consumers are being led astray to buy season or game tickets for a product that is not what Jerry Jones is selling.  The consumers are partially to blame for believing Mr. Jones and for believing that "this year it is different".  So in this scenario the owner fully believes in his product (like some authenticators), but we all know he is fumbling around the truths in order to keep his business alive and sell tickets.  If only the Autograph/collectible industry had a platform as large as the NFL for all of us to learn from.  I mean I can turn on my radio or turn on my TV and I can always find a channel talking about it.  This would knock out most of the forgeries/immitations/fakes and make the collectible community a better/safer place.  Oh and i only want to pay $1.00/gal of gas too...<-- sarcasm.  Not likely.

Comment by DB on October 24, 2012 at 2:16pm

well, the Ruth xmas card is no longer visbile on EBAY; 0 results found for251167540241.  EBAY advises that they have taken the appropriate action.   FINALLY.

As some know I have become a complete cynic.  @MikeM - you were just too coy with all of this.  It's real simple - the questions; where did you buy it from but rather you danced around just posting T&Cs.    I have heard way too many claims on this one - from the buyer was going to PSA/DNA too now they are just returning it and so on....about your reimbursing it.    All of which may be true but I have become a cynic with lots of claims.

thus, the listing is no longer visible on EBAY, that is a fact and the buyer can now invoke the claim process.  

Thus - beam me up Scotty espcially with Kaptain Kirks auctions who operates in winnebago county Illinois and has a track record with babe ruths & not a good record.

Comment by Mike M. on October 24, 2012 at 2:58pm

@DB - I was dancing around saying who it was because it is called Libel...and you can be prosecuted even if the statement you are saying is true.  Just do a little law research and you would understand my "coyness".  I was just forwarding the info the buyer was giving to me straight to you.  So when she said she was submitting the card...she was submitting the card.  I received an email from her yesterday stating she returned the card (she gave me the tracking number) without even opening it from my inner packaging and would just like a refund.  i am sure she would have potentially wasted $300 of her hard earned dollars without ME letting her know the risks associated with this card, the number of people who are questioning and telling me it is not real AND ME sending her this link so she could make an educated decision on whether or not to submit the card.  You being a cynic is your problem...not mine.  By the way...thanks for making it hard on me in getting my eBay fees re-imbursed.  Since the auction has been cancelled i had to sit on the phone with eBay today for 30 minutes.  Then when i issue the refund I will have to call back to have a special one time re-imbursement issued.  All I was doing was waiting on the card to come back (lets see shipped on the 23rd, priority mail...it takes 2-3 days) to issue the refund.  Why don't you contact the buyer and ask if this is all true...it will surely satisfy your cynicism.  Now I have a nice record on my account...thanks a lot..you might have cost me another $180ish on eBay/PayPal fees.

Comment by DB on October 24, 2012 at 3:19pm

stating where it was purchased is not libel today, tommorrow, next year or the year after and well versed in law.

as far as Now I have a nice record on my account - happy to assist.  Let me know if I can help you out when you again sell a forgery.

Comment by Mike M. on October 24, 2012 at 4:45pm

@DB - Just you saying that makes me laugh.  You my sir are not well versed.  Let me explain again.  Just stating the name of said auction company is NOT libel.  BUT when combined with everything else in this post it is libel.  If you are accusing someone of selling or possibly knowingly he/she is selling fakes...that my friend is libel.  see definition below.

-li·bel

   /ˈlaɪbəl/ Show Spelled [lahy-buhl] Show IPA noun, verb, li·beled, li·bel·ing or ( especially British ) li·belled, li·bel·ling.

noun

1. Law .

a. defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.

b. the act or crime of publishing it.

c. a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.

-So go ahead and bash specific people or businesses on record all you want...I hope nothing ever comes of it, but if it does don't say you were never warned. 

-That helping me out line might have actually worked or been funny even...only the thing you needed to be true was that I was selling the autograph knowing it was a fake...which couldn't be further from the truth.  If I was doing that I would have canceled my ebay account, never responded to these posts and never refunded the buyer's money.  DB please think before sounding like you do.

Comment by DB on October 24, 2012 at 5:20pm

and as far as your account goes you might want to stick with what you know well maybe;

Antique Cast Iron Humpty Dumpty Clown Mechanical Bank. Nr/Mint

or perhaps; BEWARE!! TERRIBLE EBAY EXPERIENCE!!! I DO NOT RECOMMEND AT ALL!! BEWARE!!! on of all things wheat pennies!

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