Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Bob Stumpel on April 26, 2018 at 3:08pm

I'm not calling anything a forgery. My 'theory' that it was Duke Wade who gave out scribbles like this is the only rationale that makes historical sense to me. He probably did it just because he was a generous guy, trying to make fans happy; maybe sometimes - e.g. in the case of an incidental beauty queen - also to 'score some p****'.

His efforts to 'mimick' a blind man's handwriting were just expressions of questionable taste (maybe even more so when he used his 'wrong' writing hand to create an even more-uneven 'signature-picture').

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on April 26, 2018 at 6:35pm

After re-reading I have a couple questions. One for Bob (and hopefully you can refrain from personal insults) and one for Paul.

To Bob... I also read parts of your blog. What makes you so certain that Ray NEVER EVER signed anything when there seems to be evidence to the contrary?

Your blog mentions nothing of you having any personal contact or dealings with Ray Charles and you provide no evidence as to why you believe he didn't sign. Do you have actual statements from the early 60's as proof?

And if I was really to get technical with you, I'd say something like... by strict academic definition a "theory" is a proven "hypothesis". But I won't take it that far ;)

To Paul... Can you recall watching HOW Ray Charles signed? Did he grab the paper and do all the work himself? Or was he guided in any way? Did he use his fingers by maybe touching the top of the page to guide the pen in a straight line? Can you remember anything of this nature? Being 50+ yrs ago I can understand if you cannot recall. Sometimes I bend over to tie my shoe laces and forget what is was going to do down there. 

And who will be responsible for authenticating this piece (if any) at auction?

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 26, 2018 at 9:53pm

Hello goodcat. No I don't remember. We were just two excited kids and as you say it was a long time ago. The main thing I remember is handing the NME to Ray. I don't recall if I was first or my friend and then the other man with Ray then guided his hand Ray then signed. We were the only people there so it wasn't done in any sort of rush. In terms of it being in a straight line, I think that was just pure luck and no mystery there. It would be great if my friend was still about and his collection still existed as we could have compared but I don't recall him attempting to keep it in a straight line and guiding his fingers or anything. It was just luck and that's how it turned out. I really wasn't focused on that level of detail on how he did it. I just remember the other man getting him to the starting point. When we sorting through the collection we also found a promo card signed, which is the one Phil posted last year and I must admit I assumed I'd got that signed too but in terms of the auction we decided to steer on the side of caution and we told Omega not to put it through as signed. I think Omega have bundled that one with the programme I had and the autographs I got from the Raelettes. I think Omega use Roger Epperson for their authentications. he won't have done all of them as we gave Omega 1300 autographs but i expect he did the Beatles, Stones and this one. To be honest reading this thread and others I don't know how anyone can really authenticate this autograph as Ray Charles seems to divide opinion. Phil came on here initially as we were trying to see if anyone had any similar autographs to this one as when we researched on ebay most of his autographs were very elaborate. I think Phil fell out with one or two on here but I came on to at least set the record straight with Bob regards his blog which claimed the Birmingham show didn't take place which was incorrect. I think Bob had muddled up the UK 63 tour dates and got venues wrong. This particular item I don't think is the most valuable but its certainly the most interesting because of the volume of autographs in it, 78 and the range of people in it. I've no real expectation what it might fetch on the day. Some of my Beatles sets i suspect will get the real interest. I remember the details of many of the autographs I got especially the special ones but some I must admit I can't recall. I met Sammy Davis Jr for instance but have no memory of the incident or where it took place but in terms of Sammy i was no fan.

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on April 26, 2018 at 10:15pm

It's a great story no matter how anyone slices n dices it. 

Don't let that Bob character bother you with his rudeness. 

You know what happened and that's all that really matters

Good luck with all the sales. I hope you at least took photo's of them for rememberance sake of a very special collection

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 26, 2018 at 10:32pm

Yes I'm looking forward to the first auction in a couple of weeks. Phil and I drove up to Warrington to the auction house a couple of weeks ago and we were impressed with their knowledge of that period and the autographs I had. I managed to take a good luck at the George Harrison Mercedes Benz they just sold as well. This collection has been sat packed up for a long long time gathering dust in my attic so its time for someone else to enjoy it. I just hope it goes into the hands of fans rather than traders hence why we started off putting a few on ebay as we thought on there it had more chance of being seen by fans 

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Permalink Reply by Trevor Song on April 26, 2018 at 7:48am

Hey goodcat, maybe I should clarify something to you. The reason why I said what I said is because at this stage, I have NO way in verifying what I would get would be authentic autographs of Ray Charles because he's been dead for a while. His autograph just looks so simple and basic and I don't know if any company would really would authenticate it. There probably are some, but I still don't feel comfortable with it that much. That's why I said what I said. More importantly, these days I like getting autographs in person. Good luck achieving something like that with someone who has been dead since 2004 to sign beyond the grave. Maybe if I held a pen in hand on a Ouija board and called his spirit over, he'll sign?

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Permalink Reply by goodcat on April 26, 2018 at 8:35am

no worries

I'm in the middle of re-reading this very peculiar thread

the one thing I do know is this. I'm 53 yrs old and can write/print the English language reasonably well. BUT... and I have tried it many times in life.... when I close my eyes and try to print a word or sentence, I CANNOT print in a straight line or even get the letters to space normally

I'm not sure what to make of this thread anymore

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 26, 2018 at 8:49am

That could be because you've been denied the use of visual senses you are used to using when writing. I can't comment on anyone else's autographs, only my own. I met him and got an autograph from him. I also got autographs from the Raelettes and some of his band. I met and got autographs from virtually every star who came into Birmingham through the end of 62 and through 63 and Ray was one of them. So would I have got 2000 autographs from a variety of people and then fake one? The most valuable ones I have are the Beatles ones not this. This one just as more interest because of the rarety and debate around it, value wise who knows. All I know is that Omega Auctions were blown away when they saw the scale of what I collected back then. It's unique for such a short space of time. The rare ones have all been authenticated.

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Permalink Reply by Trevor Song on April 26, 2018 at 9:03am

All I think that matters in my opinion is if you enjoy the hobby and that anything that people say regardless of what they think or feel about what you got as far as it being real or fake doesn't stop you from what you are doing as far as collecting goes. Haters gonna hate. Of course, the situation is different when people accuse you of selling fakes (whether they are true claims or not). Then I think it's almost as bad as being called a communist in the 1940s/50s.

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Permalink Reply by Paul Canning on April 26, 2018 at 9:10am

Yes and one previous poster has chosen to call me liar on a public forum. Not nice. I had a great time collecting these over an 18 months period. Can you imagine it? i was 15 and i was meeting Nat King Cole, Ella Fitzgerald, Gene Vincent, Jerry lee Lewis, Ray Charles, the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Little Richard, Bo Diddley plus hundreds of others - many forgotten now - and I was meeting them in their prime. It was an incredible time. in 1964 I started work and the collecting stopped and I've never collected autographs since. These have been boxed away for 55 years. This is a one-off time capsule of the music scene in Birmingham over 18 months from 1962 into 1964. Ray is one that stood out though as I knew he was special. I was back-stage with the Beatles back in 62 and it was nothing special at the time, I spent time with the Stones after Mick Jagger asked me to show them to a local book store but was that special? no, not at the time. They'd only had one hit. There were a few really special ones and one of those was Ray Charles, another was seeing Gene Vincent and Jerry Lewis on the same bill and meeting them, although I'd met Vincent a few times at the pub opposite the ATV TV studies in Aston where he performed on Thank Your Lucky Stars quite a few times. 

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Permalink Reply by just some dude on April 26, 2018 at 9:22am

1. For what its worth, I just signed and printed my name with my eyes closed and had a co-worker do the same. If I tried to write it big, it looked like a child had done it - very, very similar to the sig in question. When I made a conscious effort to keep it small, it was quite concise and had none of those childlike qualities. As for my signature, it was remarkably like my normal signature. 

So what does that prove? No idea. But it was a fun little experiment to do. And my guess is is that IF Ray did in fact sign, it wouldnt look like a child had done it, unless that was his intention (which would be quite strange).

My 2 cents

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on April 26, 2018 at 9:57am

The big difference is that Ray has been been blind since he was a young chiild and you can form words based on recent memory. As for your signature, I guess most people don't actually need to look at the page when they sign their name. Ray would not have developed a signature before losing his sight.

Have a look at Jeff Healey autographs. Here is a related thread:

https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/opinions-on-jeff-he...

Jeff's signatures are much worse than Ray's as he was blind at the age of one. It is actually amazing that he even attempted to sign and that his signature has some resemblance to his name - at least the christian name anyway. 

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