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TWO JFK 1954 TLS Real or Secretary ? Please Help !

Hi, I am new here but have scoured these threads for quite a while. I am somewhat of a collector (mainly Beatles) but these items are more of a "personal" nature to me as they were sent to my father. I have read, compared and gotten many opinions over the years regarding these letters and am well aware that Kennedy signatures are amongst the hardest to authenticate. It is my hope to get Andreas Wiemer and Steve Cyrkin involved in this discussion as their input in previous discussions has been invaluable.

I have TWO JFK letters signed nine days apart and are drastically different. Mr. Wiemer's recent study and discussion notes has raised issues regarding the January 11th signature. Mainly, the stopping after the "e" in Kennedy as opposed to stopping after the "n" - in a previous discussion, he has termed this WRONG, although, admittedly, at one time thought this "style" was authentic.

The second letter dated January 20th is a completely different style (obviously). However, it incorporates styles from earlier authentic Kennedy signatures (1950-1952), the almost "V" like "K" in Kennedy, the "8" style "J" in John, as well as the skipping of the second "e" in Kennedy and the "d" along with the previously seen swooping "Y".

Many years ago, John Reznikoff gave these a cursory "looks good" but I know that a lot of new info has come out since that time.

These letters pertain to my father becoming a US citizen and I am very happy to have them in my possession. I have gone through the trouble of mounting and displaying one of them in my home (I'll reveal which one after I get opinions - LOL). I also have the "franked" envelopes that they came in and will provide photos if that would help at all.

I am simply trying to get the most informed opinions regarding this so that I can confidently display it and pass on to my children. Please help. Please ask any questions if I have missed anything and I greatly appreciate your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you.

Tags: Historical, JFK, TLS, presidential

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 21, 2018 at 11:13pm

I have noticed this - it soon goes away. Other times I hit reply and it just sits there when in another window it has posted.

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Permalink Reply by James on August 21, 2018 at 10:51pm

It should be clarified I was stating that I’ve spent more time on JFK personally than any other historical figure that I’ve studied.

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 21, 2018 at 11:50pm

thanks James, didn’t think you were bragging...LOL ! I’ve read many of your previous posts and knew that you have dedicated considerable time to JFK, which is why I appreciate and value your opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 23, 2018 at 6:40pm

Found another letter signed the same day as my Jan 11, 1954 letter, nearly identical. Not sure if this helps or hurts my investigation into authenticity but thought I'd upload to get others' thoughts. Whatever feedback would be greatly appreciated...

Attachments: No photo uploads here

kennedy January 11, 1954.jpg, 136 KB
January-11-1954.jpg, 792 KB

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Permalink Reply by Abcd on August 23, 2018 at 8:23pm

The plot thickens. I can't find these signatures.

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Permalink Reply by Abcd on August 24, 2018 at 12:00am

Here are some more exemplars. Look at the K. I'm leaning towards genuine

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 24, 2018 at 9:24am

Michael, Wow ! These certainly look very close to mine. Where did you find them ? are they deemed "authentic" ? My concern, still, is the "e" following the "nn" in Kennedy, which Andreas has termed as "wrong". The first two have it, the third does not. Are either of these "official" documents ? Like the Memorandum or the Senate Chamber documents, are those documents that a secretary would never sign or something that Kennedy would have had to sign himself ? I'm not familiar with the origin of either one. I'm still hunting for a check or other official document from that time period. Thanks so much for your help and would appreciate any further feedback.

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Permalink Reply by Abcd on August 24, 2018 at 10:02am

I'm not sure where they came from. I was looking for a letter with a signature like yours but with JFK handwriting attached. If you keep looking, you will come across some kind of resolution. I'm undecided.

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Permalink Reply by Paulrichards on August 24, 2018 at 10:40am

I think we are beating this topic to death. What makes JFK so interesting is the multiplicity of forms of his signature even over a short time span. You will never know for certain unless you saw him sign it. However there are certain trends that can be stated. Kennedy wrote with a fluid hand. The Jan 11 signature is consistent with that as well as the entirety of the last name including the terminal Y in the spring of 1954 as Senator. I have the exemplar in Charles Hamilton book where Kennedy in May 1954 is writing to someone about autographs—he was a collector as well. You will see that the last name looks exactly like the Jan 11 signature but not the Jan 20 letter. My letter was also expertized by Mabel Zahn, a doyen and contemporary of Mary Benjamin, but who worked at Sesslers in Philly. Finally, the question arises as to whether you are confident enough to stake money on your opinion. Understanding that both letters are precious to you as they relate to your father, were I a purchaser, I would have no trouble purchasing the Jan 11 letter but would not consider purchase of Jan 20 which I do not believe was authentically signed by jfk because it bears a form of signature which if authentic JFK bears an initial K in Kennedy more appropriate when he was at Choate or Harvard and not while in Congress particularly in the Senate as opposed to the House. By the way, I do not consider Andreas the final word on JFK signatures

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Permalink Reply by Abcd on August 24, 2018 at 11:06am

I have two Hamilton books. What page are you referring to?

Look at the writing on the senate chamber piece, it doesn't look like JFK's handwriting. (That's if the signature and text is the same hand)

We are getting there. It just needs a bit more research to uncover the truth.

This is why I love collecting autos.

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Permalink Reply by Rfitzz on August 24, 2018 at 12:37pm

Paul and Michael, thanks so much for your time and responses. I, too, have the Hamilton "Robot" book, what page are you referring to ? Is there a second book I am unaware of ?

I understand that everyone has their own feelings about who has the "final word", but, certainly, people such as Andreas and yourself have a level of expertise that is well above average and is why I value more opinions. I also agree that the Jan 11th letter is more likely authentic than the Jan 20th. However, in using the comparison I used earlier (attached again) of Andreas' study (assuming those are authentic as well), I find it hard to dismiss the Jan 20th letter given that his signature seemed to change almost daily - furthermore, why would a secretary abandon a current 1954 style to a drastically earlier time ? Even the 9 day span between my letters illustrates significant differences in signature styles (although that probably indicates, more likely, two different signers).

Also, attached is a page from the Hamilton book (pg. 45) where in the span of Feb-June 1953, he has changed style again by dropping the swooping "Y" in the last example. The example on the lower left of the page shows the attached "e" following the "nn" and raised "d" in Kennedy which pokes a hole in Andreas' theory. Again, this is all under the assumption that the Hamilton examples are, in fact, truly authentic.

I agree with Michael, eventually we can uncover the truth and inspire healthy debate. Plus, this has been fun playing detective ! I thank all of you for your time and input and look forward to others as well.

Attachments: No photo uploads here

JFK Comparison Jan 20.JPG, 596 KB
Hamilton Feb-June,1953.JPG, 1.7 MB

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Permalink Reply by Abcd on August 24, 2018 at 11:26am

I've seen these for sale on ..

Robert Edwards. Higgins and Scott. Nated Saunders PSA/DNA cert.

I also saw one on PSA/DNA site.

All this means nothing. I have greater skills that this lot of jokers

I'm getting there. I found one with JFK handwriting on. The ink is different to the signature. This leads me to think that it was signed by a secretary and a note added later by JFK. The writing on that other document I attached does not look like JFK's handwriting, so it's not looking too good at the moment.