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Authenticity is Everything
Opinions on the great Elmore James
Hi guys,
I was extremely lucky recently and have acquired what i believe to be the pinnacle of my collection. I primarily collect blues musicians, with and emphasis on guitarists. And the old african american delta blues musicians are my peak interest.
Months ago, RR initially had a 45 listed signed by Elmore James. It didnt stay up long, but i was the high bidder when the auction was pulled. I didnt know why, but i thought it was gone for sure. As with all the rare blues guys, signature examples are often non existent. I have never before seen an Elmore James, so when not too long ago, i saw this same 45 on ebay, i instantly jumped on it, and made the seller an offer. The seller is absolutely top notch, and has consigned many amazing authentic items with RR with no authenticity concerns at all, such as John Hurt, Guitar Slim, etc. He is a great guy and a very educated collector.
He was very forthcoming with all info. So here is the story. The 45 was purchased off of a blues collector who also sold this same ebay seller the graphs such as John Hurt, etc that were all authentic. The collector i purchased it form is very well versed in blues, probably more than i am, so he researched these guys very good. So when he decided to sell, after about 20 years or so, he consiged the James with RR. The item was pulled though and here is why. The 45 is made out to what appears to be the radio station WBLS. Apparently an RR viewer notified them that the radio station known as WBLS wasnt formally known as that until around 68, which is after Elmores death, which i believe was in 64. So to air on the side of caution, the pulled the item.
Both me and the seller really did some digging on this item. And here are some things that make me think its the real deal. Before changing to the initials WBLS, the radio station was in question was a big draw for blues and AFrican American musicians. And there are conflicting dates on when WBLS officially adopted that name. I personally believe that there was a transition period in which the radio station knew it was changing names, but had not yet officially switched. So to me, it wouldnt surprise me if the radio station guy who got it signed, asked for the WBLS dedication b/c they knew the station would change names shortly. Either that, or maybe we are dealing with another WBLS.
So i did some more digging, and tried to email any surviving employee who worked at WBLS during the time that James would be alive, but i have had no luck. Everyone is either deceased or i couldn't locate them.
I asked Roger his thoughts, and he had never seen a James before, which isnt surprising, but judging by the authenticity of the other items from the same consigner, which ultimately originated from the same blues collector, he thought it was genuine as best he could tell, but he couldnt give an official opinion.
I then emailed Larry Rafferty, known as Mr. Bebop to ask him his thoughts. He kindly replied and stated that he had actually seen one James before, a signed check, that he tried to buy, but the owner refused. Larry made a copy of it, but he couldnt find it when I asked if he could locate it. The seller did state though that he had seen one James before many years previous and the long J formation was very similar to this one.
So here are my thoughts. I find it very unlikely that a forger, at any time, would pick a radio station to forge an inscription too, especially a very old radio station. I also believe that if a forger did enough homework to know about WBLS and its history, that they would have taken the time to make sure that the radio station they were using in the dedication existed before James passed away. The handwriting also looks aged and the LP slip cover (there was no LP with it_ is cloth and quite old as well. I dont know what 45 was originally in the album though, as the only mark on the slip, is "Promo".
Now i admit that too many, my assumptions may be unfounded, and it indeed is taking a gamble, but i couldnt resist. A real Elmore James signature is beyond rare. I believe it to be authentic, and am certainly not questioning the seller. If its not legit, he certainly had no clue.
But one thing i have learned is that there are always some knowledgeable collectors out there who might have seen some James signatures before. And if so, i hope they will see this and post a pic of what they have seen, or give there comments. Its a long shot, but i thought id give it a try. It really is an amazing piece, and im thrilled to own it.
But i welcome any info anyone has, concerning WBLS and what that inscription may be key too, or about the signature itself.
Thanks as always guys for your time
Carl
Just for fun, here is a CD i own, signed by the Elmore's cousin, and great slide guitarist in his own right, Homesick James
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on
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I should also add that the signature is actually fairly smooth and fluid with no obvious starts and stops. I believe it was signed with the 45 still in the sleeve, which resulted in a few skips as the pen hit the grooves, but there are no obvious signs of slow writing
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Permalink Reply by Nate on
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Hi Carl,
So it was you who nabbed it! I saw it come up and then I turned around and it was gone. How much did it set you back in the end?
I have only ever seen one other possible Elmore James before, it is, as I understand it, in the collection of one Barry Soltz and is apparently signed to Hound Dog Taylor. Here is a picture of it:
I have absolutely no knowledge as to whether this one is genuine or not, but if we just do a straight forward comparison you will see the 'E' looks very similar to yours and the 'J' is long (but a little different to yours), the 's' in James looks different as does the 'To'. Maybe a bit more research into this one might help with yours?
I wish you luck.
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Permalink Reply by Pat Boyack on
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I noticed a "To Hound Dog" on the other side of the 45. I bet it's Hound Dog Taylor who was a big time Elmore James fan.
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Thank you Nate. Thats a big help, as i have been able to find nothing. They certainly do not appear to have been signed by the same individual. I will try and contact Mr. Stoltz to see if he has any info on the item that i can follow through with. Now if one more example shows up, and it matches to mine, or the one you posted, i think we can put this to bed as to the probability that the one i have is authentic or not. It may just be that me and the original buyer were fooled by a forgery. Thanks alot for this. I will message you privately what i paid for it. Take care nate
Carl
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Promo records were normally signed by record company people in those days.
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Permalink Reply by michelle on
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Hi Carl, how great to find it again on e bay. I think the seller is based in the same area as R & R. If one is lucky one can find some good blues stuff on ebay. regards
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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on
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Look at the way in which "Elmore" is spelled. Perhaps that's the way he signed his name, but it seems odd to me. The signature on the 45 includes a fully formed "o".
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Your correct Ballroom. At least now there is something to compare with. If another example shows up, i think that will be enough to call it for me. I have to say the one on the 45 itself looks more typical of what i would expect from a very early bluesman. But i cant say that for sure, as according to those who have seen it, Robert Johnson had a very nice cursive style himself, when for many years, he was thought to barely be able to write. I honestly dont think the 45 and the 45 cover were signed by the same person. I think one or the other is probably a forgery. Sucky thing to think about, but my hopes wont totally be dashed until i see another example to confirm things. I am hoping Mr. Stoltz will communicate with me.
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Try contacting Wes Race. I will send you his email privately if you want.
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i just wanted to keep everyone informed about the Elmore James piece. As most of you know i am selling off a great deal of my collection as medical bills are taking there toll. So it has been up on ebay for about 3 days and i was contacted today by a Mr. Jim O'Neil of Mississippi Blues Trail.
This is his website, and i am very thankful he sent me a message and gave me some information. He might be of a great deal of assistance to others in the future on similar matters. And i truly thank him.
http://www.msbluestrail.org/contact
Mr. O'Neil informed me that the Elmore james 45 in my possession is on all probability a forgery. In addition to the WBLS inscription being strange, he noted several other things, as he is extremely knowledgeable in the area. He offered to send me scans of legit Elmore James autographs that he has, some from official navy documents and other governmental documents. He informed me that my 45 does not match with these.
i am very disappointed, but what can you do. I dont think the seller knew about it at all, and he seems like a great guy. I think me and him got taken, and possibly even the guy before him. I do find it very strange that someone would forge a James signature and add that inscription, as it would require some research to even know that radio station existed and to pick it out of the blue seems weird. But as we all know, forgers are great at deception.
In any event, the ebay auction was ended immediately to make sure the item is stopped from every going into circulation again. I have sent an email to the collector who sold it to me and i hope we can work out a deal, if these scans do show that its a forgery. I have not been sent the scans yet, but as soon as i do, i will keep you guys updated.
At the very least, these scans may be of benefit for future collectors for a long time to come, as certainly there are few if any scans of legit autographs circulating out there.
Thanks guys
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Ok guys,
So i have an update, and would appreciate your opinions as well. After receiving scans of Elmore's SSN application, it does appear that the 45 is not authentic. I have compared the signatures over and over, and i really see no way that the 45 is legit. Interestingly enough, these solid examples also seem to indicate that the 45 signed to "hound dog" is also not authentic, as i see alot of differences. It just goes to show i suppose, that forgers will go to great lengths to fool people. I have been in touch with the seller, and i think we will be able to come to a conclusion that is unfortunate, but fair to both sides.
A few interesting notes. One, is that Elmore had probably better cursive handwriting than most today, including myself. He was a very good penman. Also, if you note the birthdate on Elmore's SSN application, he states that his bday is Jan 18th, yet its commonly reported that his bday is January 27th. There is often confusion about birthdates with the old blues guys, and this is no different. I just wonder who is correct. I imagine Elmore was, but who knows at this point. Wikipedia and 100 other sites will need to revise his bday though, if indeed the 18th is the correct date. And Elmore's Navy documents also show his bday as the 18th. Very interesting.
In any event, if anyone out there is interested and has time, i would appreciate your thoughts and comparison on the legitimacy of the 45 i own. I am very confident its not authentic now, but i would love some extra imput. If nothing else, we now have some solid signature examples from James.
Thanks everyone.
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Permalink Reply by Tacoma Blues on
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This is an old thread, but I wanted to breathe some life into it after having done a fair bit of research on this topic. I recently came across a signature very similar to the 45 signed sleeve shown at the top of this article. I pursued a path similar to the one that Carl did after acquiring this piece. I was able to obtain a couple additional public record documents signed by Elmore James beyond those shown in this article. The additional documents I found were Elmore James' WW II draft card (found on Ancestry.com) and a very rare copy of a Trumpet Records royalty check made out to and endorsed by Elmore. The signatures on these additional documents closely matched the ones below provided by Mr. O'Neil.
When I submitted my Elmore James signature for review I included a total of six confirmed examples of Elmore's signature for comparison. The signature I purchased was reviewed very carefully by a small group of connected experts and deemed authentic given its match to the six submitted examples. The signature which I have had validated as authentic is very similar to the signed 45 sleeve. While there is a variance between the "fan signature" and formal document signatures, the review by the team of experts found similarities which led them to believe that the signature was authentic.
As such, I can't specifically speak to the above 45 sleeve as being the real thing 100% as I don't own it and it was not submitted for review. It does, however, bear a very strong resemblance to the piece I had validated. As such, I would suspect that a strong case can be made for the authenticity of the signed 45 sleeve if it were to be submitted for validation. If ANYONE knows who currently owns the above 45 sleeve then please contact me via private messaging on this platform. I would like to guide the owner through the resources and steps I took in getting my piece validated.
I cannot speak to the authenticity of the 45 inscribed with "To Hound Dog" as it varies enough where I can't make a reasonable guess one way or the other. I am not going to post my authenticated Elmore signature on-line in order to protect it from forgers. I would, however, love to contact the owner of the signed 45 sleeve as I strongly suspect it is the real thing. Thank you.
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