Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on December 4, 2014 at 9:21pm

+1. Wascher has done a great job here. Steve made a good choice in bringing her on. She is as passionate about autographs as anybody else here. Attacking her personally because her opinion might devalue something somebody bought is a joke. That is a forgers stunt.

Wascher......keep up the good work. There are a grip of folks here smart enough to see through the BS. I'd take your opinion on MJ over the clowns at PSA or JSA all day long.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 5, 2014 at 11:00am

Roger is my go to guy on on popular music--he's the best, period. But some of the best autograph authenticity determinations come when passionate fans and experts work together, and I think Wascher and Lillie are onto something that needs to be discussed and analyzed.

Max, the team of Michael Jackson fans Wascher and Lillie belong to alerted us to the hundreds of obvious forgeries in Julien's Tompkins and Bush sale two years ago.

Wascher and Ema discovered the fake MJ signed drawings by Erick Burgos.

And another one, Sandy Stadtler, pointed out that Michael Jackson autographs Tompkins and Bush sold through Julien's before Tompkins died spelled Michael's name with two L's. Whoever signed them mustn't have realized that the loop at the end of "Michael" was actually an L. We thought those were good before Sandy pointed that out. 

BTW, the $1.8 million twice-signed Thriller jacket Julien's sold in 2011 was one of the pieces sold with two L's.

I've learned to take it seriously when Wascher and her friends are concerned about a Michael Jackson autograph.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 5, 2014 at 11:10am

That said, there's one thing I don't take Wascher seriously on. I don't think Shih Tzus are real dogs.

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on December 5, 2014 at 11:23am

They should be considered a gerbil.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 5, 2014 at 5:23pm

I just typed shih tzu into a Chinese-English dictionary. It means "hors d'oeuvre".

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Permalink Reply by Sam Iam on December 5, 2014 at 7:36pm

Ok guys/girls can we please clarify which, if any of these are real? I was thinking about making a bid on a few but don't want forgeries, obviously

Should I just go with the ones already certified by Epperson?

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on December 6, 2014 at 2:41am

Personally, if I was considering buying MJ art (which is generally priced at a higher point than autographs alone) I would be asking the seller questions that I would ask in any art market.  What is the date of the item, where and when was it drawn and painted, how does it fit into the known catalogue of the artist's previous work, has this art been sold or exhibited before, who is the consignor and does this fit with the history of the work? I'd also ask, as with any major auction house, what guarantees are in place for refunds should the art be later shown to be inauthentic. 

  'Fake Art' consigners have duped even the most illustrious international auction houses and sellers for centuries.  Here is a link to an interesting website on the topic...faking art apparently dates back at least 2000 years...so nothing new or unusual there.  (I hope this link is allowed).

http://www.freemanart.ca/greatest_art_forgers_fakers.htm

Also be aware that if you are an investor, like 'stocks and shares' the value of art can go down as well as up, so never invest more than you can afford to lose.

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Permalink Reply by TeamMichael777 on December 7, 2014 at 10:30am

Fake!

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Permalink Reply by wascher on December 8, 2014 at 2:31am

I popped onto Brett Livingstone-Strongs page a few minutes ago and he has this posted.   I have not spoken to him since I first brought him the Erick thread weeks ago to give us opinions.  Brett was Michaels art teacher and business partner in art, and had been since the 80's.

-w

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on December 8, 2014 at 9:09am

100% accurate and reliable third-party authentication would be great, but I'm not sure that the Estate will want prospective sellers (or buyers) writing to them to ask if art can be authorised, nor Mrs Jackson or her appointed manager.  Also, there is usually a charge for authentication (as it takes time and resources) so I'm not entirely clear how this might work at the moment.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on December 8, 2014 at 9:12am

There is no such thing as 100% accurate authentication of items the authenticator didn't see signed. It's a judgment call. 

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Permalink Reply by Lizzie on December 8, 2014 at 9:18am

In the art world, there are definitely (deceased) artists who have a 'closed catalogue' of work, and once this is established, nothing can be added without certification by the relevant body.  So if the 'art' rather than the 'autograph' model is used ( as there will be far fewer works of art than autographs) it is possible to limit the accepted works to an authenticator -agreed  body of work.  It may still be a judgement call but the final  judgement in the art world is usually almost impossible to dispute.  (and the burden of proof is usually on the person requesting authentication).

For major artists, without a proper art COA, you may not be able to: sell, auction, insure, or donate for tax deduction any works by the specified artist.

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