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Authenticity is Everything
Has Autograph collecting become less of a hobby and more of a business.
The internet has made it easy to trade. With the birth of the ebay flipper, where is our hobby heading? Is the hobby more of a business for flippers who are inflating our loved autographs. Its not uncommon to see items sold at auctions and resold a week later for double the amount. There also seems to be more and more flippers around.
Whats doing more damage to the prices the flippers or the forgers?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Paul on
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Thanks again great points. Another question.
With all the court cases people being sued, the huge mark ups from some sellers (not all ) with little room to negotiate, the artist rubber stamping etc.. the fraud. Are we reaching some kind of pinnacle in the hobby?
Its a great hobby I enjoy it, I also apologies if this is a silly question.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on
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Pinnacle? No.
More likely "nadir."
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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on
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I think the higher asking prices reflect slower sales thus sellers needing more profit per item. The bargains are snapped up quickly. The Internet gives collectors more options and resources to find autographs. And the consent hammering about forgeries places a "necessary" fear in potential buyers about buying. Especially those who may be new or just becoming interested in the hobby but lack the experience and/or time to research on their own. Eventually time will sort this out as water will always find it's proper level. The key word is "confidence" and when that is lost the result is never good.
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Permalink Reply by Danny on
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Forgery is more damaging.
Flipping is a short term event. Supply and demand and eventually it diminishes or levels out.
When someone "really" wants something, money's no object. A lot of celebrities are collectors too.
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Hi All, People selling what they own for a profit is okay... People making a living from their hobby is okay... People running a business is okay... But those of us who love Books, or Chess, or Autographs will collect because we love it. I don't feel sad for the people who treat these things I love as a commodity - but they are missing the good part of it for sure. I have been collecting certain books and chess sets for many years and fakes aren't an issue. I have been collecting Autographs about 3 years and its a totally different matter... As a "relative" newcomer I am not offended by the business aspect, but and deeply put off by the flagrant dishonesty of some people in this hobby.... knowingly selling or authenticating fakes is what will ultimately kill the joy in it for me. And just my own personal view... even a good guy, one with a great reputation, selling or authenticating even 1 item they are unsure about is just wrong. They are putting money ahead of honesty and that will damage Autograph collecting for us all. From reading a lot of posts on this website I've yet to find a single dealer or authenticator whom someone doesn't have a "comment" about... a shame
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Permalink Reply by Josh Board on
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Another reason the business aspect is hurting the collector is this. Once the stars realize there's a business side (and they do), they are less likely to sign for EVERYONE. If you go back to 1950 -- it sucked for Marilyn Monroe or Clark Gable to go anywhere. Every other celebrity, was probably flattered if you asked for an autograph. Now...everyone gets annoyed, even some small character actor from TV, because they know you might sell it and make a business out of it...instead of just being thrilled you met somebody you're a fan of.
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Permalink Reply by Dane on
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The three times that I've been asked for my autograph, I told the individual (and in one case, her parent), that I wasn't really a celebrity, and my signature wasn't worth much of anything -- it might even decrease the value. In all three cases, they laughed and actually mentioned an accomplishment I had a few years before as the reason they wanted my autograph. I was humbled in a way, and I still insist they likely wish I hadn't signed it. :D
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What was a $10.00 autograph in 1980 is now a $1000.00 autograph. Sadly the collector is buying the letter not the autograph. Anyone foolish enough to think JSA and PSA are correct most of the time has been fooled by the big hype.
On the other hand a person would be wise to only purchase a rare autograph from PSA or JSA because in today`s autograph Hobby / business it is the letter that holds the value of an item.
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Permalink Reply by Sports n Stuff on
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That's very well put and an interesting take on the whole idea of collecting/buying!! It's just sad that this is what has become of the industry! Honestly it's hard to trust anyone. It's a good thing this site allows people to gather as much info as possible to make up their mind!
I was just talking with my dad the other day about how often they are wrong....as mostly everything in my collection has been seen signed by he or I. But I would have to spend in the 6 maybe even more figures to have everything authenticated by the so called professionals!
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I don't believe 1980s prices reflect the industry today. I also don't believe the collector is buying the letter of authenticity before the autograph, on page 4 members mentioned people pay more for an autograph because its like insurance that makes them feel comfortable with their purchase and it doesn't push the prices up that much more.
Another member said authenticators exist because the industry is rife with forgeries.
But I think the prestigious authenticator or auction house brings a premium to collecting esp the Beatles, I cant talk sport. What do you guys think?
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Even if your statement were true (it's not in most cases), the reason is demand. Until 1982 or so, no one really paid a premium for autographs. In some cases, you could get older baseball cards (pre-WW2) at a discount, if they were autographed, since the autograph was viewed by many collectors as damage. During the 60s/70s, autograph hounds would do a lot of TTM and hotel collecting: This is one reason why there are so many autopens/secretarials/clubhouses from that period and before. Often times, fans would hand their items to a publicist or representative who would collect all the items, get them signed, then hand them back. I imagine for such a system to work, there must not have been huge crowds. This fits with the idea of lower demand during that period.
Today, we're in a different world. As Josh Board stated above, there's now the business aspect of things to contend with. The TPAs (or TDH, as Sports n Stuff derogatorily calls them) provide a service that protects most collectors. You still buy the autograph/signature, but if you're on the fence or want another opinion, the TPA can provide some level of assurance.
I use TPAs when I choose to sell items from my collection, since I'm no one special. LOAs from me are only good for the person who buys from me. A receipt holds the same value. Having the TPA opinion gives the buyer a degree of comfort that, should they need to resell the item themselves, there's a degree of marketability for the item.
Having the TPA opinion doesn't provide a significant premium. If anything, the cost of the TPA fees sometimes exceed (albeit marginally) the value added by the authentication. In those cases, I simply offer to accept returns of any failed items. I don't argue with the TPA's opinion. Why? Because there's no reason to. I hate when eBay sellers state that they won't accept returns based upon the opinion of TPAs, since it's an opinion. That's simply idiotic and (to me, at least) a red flag: If you're unwilling to acknowledge that an authenticator deems your items as likely not authentic, then you shouldn't be selling those items. Just my thoughts. Now, that said, for high priced or extremely rare items, I reserve the right to vet a list of accepted authenticators.
The reason for this final clause has to do with exemplar libraries and how they're developed. If you have early career autographs of certain personalities, they look distinctly different than the signatures people are used to seeing. This applies to such persons as Canadian Baseball HOFer Larry Walker, likely future boxing HOFer Shane Mosley, Mark McGwire, Cooperstown HOFer Tony Gwynn, future Cooperstown HOFer Miguel Cabrera, David Ortiz, and many others. Signatures change over careers, and blindly using current exemplars to judge early signatures will lead to many failures that shouldn't be. One positive of a large TPA like PSA/DNA is that they will listen to concerns of special situations that may have led to a failure.
The debate isn't always as one-sided as it seems.
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Says the know it all on every subject ever posted on here! If autographs werent at a premium then why was mantle having the a clubhouse representative signing most of his fans requests? Cause he got so many request or he was too busy getting drunk?
Maybe period, not everyone knows everything even Tom dick and Harry!
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