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Permalink Reply by JLee on September 2, 2012 at 2:01am

I would be interested to hear about the other missing medical document. I'm not surprised that they recovered it almost immediately. The reason that I believe that the story on the Jackson documents is reasonable is because the documents were already out of the possession of the hospital. According to the release document the forms would have been in the possession of the litigation attorneys. Being that they had disputes with Jackson and stopped representing him, it doesn't surprise me that they would have been carelessly discarded. I also think it is unreasonable to think that the law office (who stopped representing Jackson many years ago) would not notice these items being stolen (if that was indeed the case).

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on September 2, 2012 at 2:45am

Going to be very interesting for sure....if this is all even true. Not sure why but for some reason I either think you have these things and are trying to figure out the legality of trying to sell them or this is all just a made up story. I dont believe for a second that a guy walked past a trash can and just so happened to find the medical records for Michael Jackson's Pepsi commercial accident with polaroids. And low and behold there is a case study that says if you find it in the trash it's OK. No it isn't. You'd have to show Michael Jackson himself threw them away. Just hard to believe that these documents were just magically released in original form from Cedar Sinai Hospital. I'd have to see them to believe it.

I just think a lawyer if hired by the Jacksons would eat this up. I get documents for people all the time. I have yet to ever had the hospital or Dr's office return me the original release form. They keep the original release form to show that the release of documents was authorized. Would be a major HIPPA violation not to keep it. The hospital could easily be sued as well as those who executed the release and didn't safeguard the documents. Since the original release form is with the documents it wouldn't be hard to make the assumption that they were obtained illegally and were in the possession of an unauthorized person while Micheal Jackson was still alive.

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Permalink Reply by JLee on September 2, 2012 at 11:55am

Quite an accusation. Everything that I have said is true.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Shepherd on September 2, 2012 at 12:08pm

Who brought the items to your attention J. Lee?  Was it the auction house or the consignor?

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on September 2, 2012 at 12:55pm

JLee, I just find it very hard to believe that somebody has these. Without knowing the legality of the documents and will not post photo's of them but will show them and tell you and BTW allow you to research information on them over the internet on a site that would surely attract attention. No accusation. I just don't believe a word of it. If these go up for sale and sale is legal I will post an apology. Just convinced that there will never be a need.

Second the case law you posted would have absolutely nothing to do with this instance. It is regarding physical evidence of narcotics use that was placed into the trash and taken to the street. Police siezed the trash to obtain evidence to request a search warrant. Precedent had to do with expected privacy one would expect if they personally threw away their own trash and then moved the trash to a public area. It would not cover finding documents in the trash that MJ himself did not place there.

Lastly, I called the records section of the hospital where MJ was treated. Spoke with Samantha. Surprised they were open over the weekend but sure enough. She states that all original documents are the property of the hospital per a law of California that she did not have handy. She states under no circumstances would original documents be released to anybody, not the patient, a lawyer...etc. A medical release form would be required and the original release maintained by the hospital. The release form would only entitle a person to a photocopy of their medical records. The hospital under court subpeona would still only release copies of documents but would have these documents notarized by the chief of medical records. Without going into names I asked her how one would come into possession of these original documents and without using the terms I have she stated that is would not have been done legally.

 

Permalink Reply by JLee on September 2, 2012 at 2:42pm

Mike -

The documents were brought to my attention by the auction house who is currently in possession of them and doing their due diligence at this time.

Permalink Reply by JLee on September 2, 2012 at 3:22pm

Rick,

The Supreme Court decision does cover more the 'privacy' aspect of trash. "The Supreme Court did weigh in on the status of trash in 1988 but from a privacy rather than property standpoint. In that case, the court ruled that the police can search trash bags without a warrant because it's "common knowledge" that garbage is "readily accessible to animals, children, scavengers, snoops, and other members of the public." And, therefore, there's no "reasonable expectation of privacy" when it comes to discarded items."

It seems that there have also been a lot of cases involving the ownership aspect of trash. From what I have found it the found items from the 'trash' almost exclusively belong to the finder. "In one Indiana case from 1999, a labor organizer removed several bags of trash from a bin on the premises of a contracting company and searched them for employee contact information (for his unionization efforts). The company alleged that its property had been stolen, but the appellate court ruled that the organizer wasn't liable since the material had been abandoned."

In regards to these specific documents, it sounds like MJ signed off on the release of the documents to his litigation attorney's (I would think that would then transfer the ownership to his attorney's?)

I am assuming that "Samantha" was speaking generally and she is probably not familiar with this specific paperwork. Not saying she is wrong, but I am not surprised by her answers. It is well documented that Jackson's medical records were illegally accessed multiple times after he passed away but there is no report of anything physically missing. I would think that hospitals would have checked for missing physical documents when all of that started happening?

Certainly a lot of unanswered questions. I guess we will see how it plays out. Rick, you seem knowledgeable and I'm happy to have a discussion with you and answer any questions that you have... just not sure how you can flippantly make a claim that I am being dishonest? I do not own the documents and my knowledge comes from the auction house. Just trying to have an open conversation about it as I think this case is interesting and could potentially be a huge story.

I will be happy to give more specifics when I am released to do so. Right now, the knowledge that I have has been given to me in confidence by the auction house and I am not willing to break that trust.

Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on September 2, 2012 at 3:52pm

I sent a copy of this thread to the Law Firm of Ziffren Brittenham LLP, Attn : Sr Partner John Branca.

Mr Branca is not only tasked as an executor of the will but with the managing and preservation of Micheal Jackson's estate.

Hopefully I get a reply to the questions I sent..... pro bono of course. The website alone looks expensive. LOL. 

Permalink Reply by JLee on September 3, 2012 at 1:27am

Here is a statement from the Medical Board of California website:
"Who owns medical records? Do the records belong to me?

No, they do not belong to the patient. Medical records are the property of the medical provider (or facility) that prepares them. This includes films and tracings from diagnostic imaging procedures such as x-ray, CT, PET, MRI, ultrasound, etc. The patient has a right to view the originals, and to obtain copies under Health and Safety Code sections 123100 - 123149.5."

In other words, the Jackson estate would have no right to the original documents at any point.

Being that medical records were not treated so carefully until recent years isn't it reasonable to believe that these could have ended up in the trash years ago? And, assuming the story is true, wouldn't the current holder of the documents own them? Seems logical considering laws in regards to trash?

Another interesting angle to consider (assuming the story that these documents were in the trash) is how long the hospital was legally obligated to keep the originals before having the right to discard them. From what I have seen, the obligation never stretches beyond 7 years. So, it seems that the hospital would have been within their rights to discard the documents. Sure, they were negligent to not shred them, but years ago it is doubtful that this was uncommon.

Thoughts?

Permalink Reply by JLee on September 2, 2012 at 3:38pm

Rick,

This whole story continues to intrigue me. I am trying to do some research about other medical documents sold on the market. Apparently an original X-Ray of Marilyn Monroe was sold at auction for $45K (and the sale complete). I wonder why the Monroe estate didn't go after it? In that case the x-ray came from the collection of a physician. Thoughts?

Here is a link with a discussion on the Monroe X-Ray:

http://www.whattoexpect.com/forums/hot-topics-1/archives/public-sal...

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Permalink Reply by JLee on September 2, 2012 at 4:23pm

Rick,
Hopefully you get a reply. Let me know!

Permalink Reply by JLee on September 5, 2012 at 8:39pm

Rick,
Any reply from the law firm?

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