Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on November 6, 2019 at 3:58pm

I am guessing not. 

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Permalink Reply by Markus Fischer on November 11, 2019 at 2:57pm

Dear Eric,

thanks again for your opinion - I seem to be very unlucky with all my recent acquisitions :-(

My best
Markus

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Permalink Reply by Pauline Berry on November 11, 2019 at 3:22pm

Hi Markus

So sorry to hear you own this.  Can you get your money back? It's a crime someone sold you this.

Please do come to this forum before consider buying anythng.

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Permalink Reply by Pauline Berry on November 6, 2019 at 7:47pm

Oh dear, not her signature. The first line looks the most like her hand writing - perhaps this is real but the "signature" put paid to that idea.

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Permalink Reply by Markus Fischer on November 11, 2019 at 3:35pm

Hello Pauline,

thank you yery much for your feedback - although it makes me very sad!

With all due respect and highest appreciation of your long-lasting and famous reputation as a Marilyn expert - may I still ask you for some more hints that underpin your opinion?

I did a little research on Marilyn autographs and I believed to have seen several similarities in her handwriting.

I admit that the first M in her signature is not too common, whereas the rest of Marilyn in my humble opinion has a good portion of resemblance to the many real ones I have seen.

I also admit that the Monroe - especially the "nro" - made me feel quite uncertain, too.

Any chance that at least a part of this handwriting coud be a real Marilyn?

You know, I immediately thought "Who would - as a forger - risk so much by producing such a long statement?". The paper, the stains, the two different handwritings, the interesting quote written down... All this taken into account, I thought it might be an irregular, but still real Monroe...

No chance? ;-)

Thanks a million times for reconsidering!

My best regards
Markus

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Permalink Reply by Pauline Berry on November 11, 2019 at 5:52pm

Hi Markus

I know. I have been stunned by some of the ingenius additional exposure forgers submit themselves to. Recently an attempt at a whole dedication on a photo etc.,

Awhile ago I put this blog online. Examples from 1947-1962 - you can see the changes in her hand-writing and the big variety. 

When the hand-writing can't be pinpointed by year approximately it's a sign that it is fraudulent. I can usually tell someone what year it was written within say 3 years?

Once you look through the blog it will help your eye develop and give you some surety.

I also have a Secretarial blogs of all known examples. So here you are:

Marilyn Monroe Autographs on Blogspot

Marilyn Monroe Secretarial Collection

There is also a book which is just all her scribblings, thoughts, a bit like your item. It's called "Fragments" and that would be an excellent comparison.

I haven't spent too much time, but there is one possibility, which will sound strange, but it happens.  For example, someone might have two of The Beatles autographs, but not all, so they forge the missing ones.

As I said, the earliest writing on your page COULD be her writing, but then it clearly changes into another hand after the word "said". The fact that you know it is two different hands yourself indicates there is deception at play.

Sorry to say there is no hope at all for the signature, but I will look at the first line and a half. It's possible that is original but some idiot tried to finish it and sign it off.

I add examples of her writing, the first is quite tidy:

So I have printed out your item now and will compare to my book "Fragments".

Interestingly the way it printed out there is a clear colour change in the ink between "said" and "to". I guess my printer has accidentally analyzed and interpreted something in the colour department my eye couldn't see. I am leaning towards there being many years between the two parts of this signing.

I am feeling a bit hopeful that part of this is Monroe's hand.

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Permalink Reply by Markus Fischer on November 12, 2019 at 12:07am

Hello Pauline,

thank you soooo much - you are my hero! Interesting analysis. Great blogs... Thank you for your precious time - I owe you a huge Cocktail at least :-)

Now I hope that at least the beginning of the handwriting might be real...

I should have asked here first before buying, this is for sure... So next time a potential Marilyn opportunity will come across, I promise to come back to you - if I may.

Thank you so much in advance!

Have a nice evening
Markus

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Permalink Reply by Pauline Berry on November 12, 2019 at 6:19pm

Hi Markus

Always, we are just here to give an opinion - for free too.

I spent quite a while comparing with the book Fragments and I am 99%, even 100% sure it is her hand-writing up to and including the word "said". After that is just nonsense.

There are several examples in the book that match really well, even though not exact all the characteristics are there. If you go into a bookshop or purchase the book (it's by Stanley Buchthal & Bernard Comment), have a look at page 190 first, other pages are very helpful too. Your signing has many of the same words on this page and you can see how much they have in common.

I have put a scan of this down the bottom though.

Also your date is really relevant, from February 1961 on Marilyn Monroe was in deep trouble mentally, she was even confined in basically a rubber room in March 1961, unable to be released, at one point she threw a chair against the glass and broke it at being imprisioned with "the loonies" as she put it. She wrote letters imploring her acting coach and Joe DiMaggio to get her out. Only Joe responded, and threatened to take the hospital apart "brick by brick" if they didn't let her out. He succeeded and she fired her doctor.

During this time, after the rubber room, she hardly wrote because she said her hand-writing was so bad, she got her secretary to type up letters to friends, doctors, colleagues and coaches. This is in Fragments too.

This hand-writing is a fairly horrendous example, but everything is right. I was so put off by the signature as well as the "to be . . ." onwards I dismissed it all.

Although this is her hand-writing, to my mind, it would be very difficult item to re-sell.  Also verifying with one of the professional authentication companies - they probably wouldn't verify it. I think if you are a true fan of MM, perhaps frame it in such a way that excludes the additional writing.

On page 190, the "that" is terrific and everything in it, is also in your "that" even though they look a little different, they are the same author, so malformed in the same way too, there is a closer example on another page. There is a good "didn't" too, but although on the surface different, every tendency is there, magnified to different extents. A forger cannot do this, Marilyn wrote so fast, no one can even really achieve her signature. She signed a little slower on cheques and documents, but the rest of the time, it was her special speed scribble. Look also at the malformed "s" on yours and page 190 - see the "s" on "somehow", it's the same form roughly. Close enough for me. Others may disagree. The "I' of course, is a straight up typical same as any other Marilyn writing, as is the "y".

There is a terribly malformed d on your "didn't" but similar malformed d in many words on page 190, although none are as malformed, you can see the tendency for the top enclosure of the d to head north. Several open top lower case "a" letters fit with her typical writing too.

The writing on page 190 is approximately the same period as yours too.

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Permalink Reply by Markus Fischer on November 13, 2019 at 1:52am

Dear Pauline,

You just made my day!!! Thank you soooo much! At least I know now that I own a piece of authentic Marilyn - one of the greatest icons ever :-)

I highly appreciate your in-depth analysis and comparison to known authentic patterns and/or letters.

I haven't heard of the book "Fragments" so far - so I am also grateful for this tip. I just ordered the book online ;-) But thanks for the scan!

In any case I will frame the document and still enjoy this mysterious piece of paper :-)

Combining the writing with her state of mind at that point of time was also very helpful - as it massively changed the characteristics of her writing...

And you may certainly call me crazy, but after comparing all the authentic Marilyn signatures in your blog, I still think that I can see quite some similarities in the Mar and ilyn-8-loop...

I like the "Mo" and the "roe" (in spite of the very little "r") and also found some irregularities in the letters "onro" in authentic ones (like one additional hook).

After all - are you absolutely positively sure that (taking into consideration her vulnerability and unpredictability in 1962)  there might be no chance at all that the signature could be real?

Anyway - thank you, thank you thank you!!!

Kind regards and good night to Auckland from Germany :-)
Markus

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Permalink Reply by Pauline Berry on November 13, 2019 at 3:38am

Hi Markus

I have seen many of these notes, she scribbled her thoughts a lot, and she never signed them, why would she?

But the person who signed this was of course really trying to imitate her style, there are resemblances because of this but they all fail in some way. Most of all though, it is clearly written slowly, tentatively, wrong shape, they got the loops ok but everything fell apart after that. It has absolutely no chance of being her signature.

Despite her scribbly varied signature there are about 25 points of reference which are mostly present in her real signature.

So much variety, but actually incredibly consistent from 1955 onwards.

Here is a collection of all real autos collected by one of her top fans. There is one Secretarial there, the picture of her on the stairs, so not her signature, all the rest are real and collected in person by the owner.

Hugely messy, in a big hurry, some of them, but still the characteristics are present.

Kuflik Collection Marilyn Monroe

Sorry to say, just a few words are in her hand, on your piece, but no signature.

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Permalink Reply by Markus Fischer on November 13, 2019 at 11:14am

Hi Pauline,

yet another great answer! Thanks a million times!

Those 25 reference points mentioned sound highly interesting...?!? I will try to find them... :-) (I also try to educate myself in graphology, forensics etc.)

The Kuflik collection is just amazing. PS: I am the happy owner of a 8x10 Cary Grant dedicated to Rhoda Kuflik ;-)

But astonishingly there are so many variations in the signatures - simplifications, size differences of the letters, shortened parts etc. Wild and crazy somehow.

Well, anyhow - I am looking forward to receiving the book "Fragments" in order to do a little research on my own.

So at least I now proudly own an "autograph" in the Greek meaning, but unfortunately no signature of MM.

Thanks again & let's keep in touch!

My very best
Markus

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Permalink Reply by Pauline Berry on November 14, 2019 at 1:49pm

I found a "d" very much like the one in your "didn't" on page 82 of "Fragments". I am very sure you own six words written by the fabulous Marilyn Monroe herself. 

In regards to the 25 points. These are for my own reference. But what is missing overall on your autograph is the "energy" which is part of the speed aspect. The direction of where the pen hits the paper - on even the worst autograph, like some of the Kuflik ones, the energy is there, the direction of the writing.

You are seeing an ingrained "brain habit". Your signature is 0 out of 100% in this department. What was added to your six words devalued the item, but still those six are real - which is exciting! :-) 

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