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Autographs and authenticity

I'm looking to get some opinions on this.  My grandparents ran an auction barn and antique store in the 50s-80s.  When they passed, my father kept some of the cool stuff, which included cut signatures from sports figures like Ruth, Gehrig, etc.  Nothing was authenticated.  He passed away last year and I now own them.  In doing my research on authentication, I believe this industry is almost counter-productive.  Here's why:


1) My father got three or four of them authenticated.  He went to some of the lesser known companies because he was, well, cheap.  They came back authentic.  These are companies on the banned Ebay list and that have been run down on here.  After doing my research, I've come to the conclusion I'm better off selling them as is with the authentication I have then to spend more money to have JSA or PSA authenticate them too, or, in the worst case scenario, have them found to be fake.


2)  I own a ton of autographs, some I know are real because of in-person signings and such, others that are questionable.  Why would I want to spend $200 to have a Ruth autograph looked at?  If it comes back a fake, I'm out $200.  I could sell it now as is and make money, without anyone ever knowing if it's real or fake until someone pays to have it authenticated themselves. 

It seems to me that if the industry wanted to get rid of fakes, it would offer cheaper fees if the item comes up fake.  And with JSA and PSA also known to have made mistakes in the past, who says either one is even right when they make a decision on my items.  Again, I'm posting this not because I want to rip someone off.  I want to understand why in the world it makes sense for me to risk paying $2,000 to get 20 autographs looked at when they could all be fake and I'm out $2,000?  All I'd have to do is put them up on Craigslist for sale, or a local auction, and make money  and move on. 

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Permalink Reply by DB on August 8, 2012 at 6:52pm

excellent point.  Since the opinion isn't guaranteed anyways it is also the best of both worlds.  except for the "ITP" ones presuming they are really "ITP".

 

Permalink Reply by Dane on August 8, 2012 at 7:22pm

Hi Darrin. The post about card grading is only partially right. While BGS charges a "flat rate" for grading, both PSA and SGC mandate that if a card is worth more, the grading fees are higher.

Here's PSA's breakdown of the fee structure:

<$10,000+> $300

<$5,000 - $9,999> $125

<$2,000 - $4,999> $65

<$500 - $1,999> $45

<$500-> $15

If you submit a 1933 Goudey Ruth card, you would pay $125 for the grading submission to PSA. If the card came back as questionable authenticity, you would still be out the $125.

To your point of rewarding a company for authenticating items, that doesn't work. That creates a bias toward passing items. What would stop your authenticating company from passing EVERY item submitted to them? If items were borderline (PSADNA gives a grading credit for these types of items), there might be a bias toward passing. After all, if it fails, the company is out $150. On the flip side, if companies are simply rendering an opinion and get $50 even if the item fails, they'd have a false incentive to automatically fail any questionable item. After all, they're getting $50 for accepting the autograph for authenticating. If it looks fake, they can skip the process of measuring the ratios on the signature, considering the surface/item signed, investigation of the substrates and inks used, turning on the UV machines, looking into the database, etc.

In either case, giving an incentive for passing items is a failed business model. It leaves too much room for questionable integrity.

In response to your original post, I have had items fail PSA that I was positive were real. I contacted Joe Orlando directly, explained my reasoning, and he told me to send them back. Steve Grad reviewed the items and wrote a note to the sports department that it should have passed. PSA paid for the return shipping. I think that my case might be unique, but I did feel they did far more than I ever expected for a $15 submission fee.

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 8, 2012 at 6:11pm

put them up here, as I just stated in my previous post.  there are people here that are just as good or better at authentication than the people that do it for a living.  

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 8, 2012 at 6:13pm

Terrier, I just opined the Lazzeri and Buck.  The Lazzeri if a fake and the Buck is authentic.

The rest you'll have to pay for.

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 8, 2012 at 6:17pm

Christopher, I did too, at the same time as you did, but it was in response to a previous post.

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 8, 2012 at 6:06pm

By the way, the Tony Lazzeri is a forgery.

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 8, 2012 at 6:22pm

you said that the Leonard was authenticated, or came from Hall's Nostalgia. I haven't heard that name in years.  I used to buy from them, in person, at their store in the Boston area 30 years ago.  I always considered them reputable, but didn't realize they were selling autographs.

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 8, 2012 at 7:27pm

Harry, I left Boston in 1981, and I used to go to their card store, I think it might have been in Arlington, MA.  But all they sold was vintage cards back then.  I remember it was the father, and two sons who ran the place.  It would not surprise me if they started doing private signings, but I just lost touch with them once I left the area.

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 8, 2012 at 6:22pm

That looks like a piece of crap (the Lazzeri) that Justin Priddy would authenticate.

Darrin, this world, and people in it, are imperfect.  Humans make mistakes; good authenticators make mistakes, but they are honest mistakes.

There are so-called authenticators who will authenticate anything that crosses their desk.  Those authenticators either have no conscience or they are total morons.

Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on August 8, 2012 at 7:27pm

or both

Permalink Reply by Darrin Willhite on August 9, 2012 at 4:27am

I'd like to thank everyone for the help.  As I said a couple times, if I wanted to sell fakes, I wouldn't have researched and asked the question on here.  The one thing I still can't fathom is the price of authentication.  As an example, the Buck Leonard auto is going for about $50 right now on various sites.  I would pay $40 to get it graded with PSA or JSA.  My question is--why pay it?  It's just not worth it.  That's the one big question I have that no one has been able to answer other than because of the ethics of it.  And if you're the guy who spent lots of money to buy something, spending more money to find out its a fake doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  But again, thanks for all the help.  I appreciate it. 

Permalink Reply by DB on August 9, 2012 at 4:40am

unless of course you use QOpine in which case it's much cheaper and you get a "probable" answer even if it is conservative.  One also weighs the need based on what the general feeling of any given coa likelihood they got it right.

At a recent show I had Bill Russell and Sam Jones added to a HOF BB.  To obtain an LOA from PSA I had to also have the John Havlichek (obtained & orig certed by Tri-star) recerted for an added $25.00.    The 2 news ones were show prices since they were signing at the show.

...And if you're the guy who spent lots of money to buy something, spending more money to find out its a fake doesn't make a whole lot of sense...   is probably what many conclude when they find out the prices (btw, there are "sales" every now and then on bulk opines) of going direct however there are other ways to avoid a "big" investment and more importantly answering the lingering question at least has an opinion.  The next hurdle you will then face is do U agree with that opinion.

Good luck whichever path you choose.

p.s. My father got three or four of them authenticated.  He went to some of the lesser known companies because he was, well, cheap.  No, we fathers are frugal ya young grasshopper ;-) but in many cases we also know we can get what we pay for.  The age of forgeries was not well known which is why the fakes roaming around are astronomical.

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