Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by DB on July 2, 2012 at 12:02am

It would appear he did know not only the store it came from but also the COA that was associated with it as opposed to a "well known authenticator".  The price tag of $9k is also now known.   There are lots collectors in this world and if they followed the post's suggestion we would be alot better off....   If one starts off with full disclosure as I suggested we avoid lots of unneeded commentary.

now somewhere in the anthology there is perhaps more to the story;

Boxing writers gathered at the Tribeca Barnes & Noble in Manhattan to celebrate the book’s publication. Of the many colorful boxing-related yarns spun, Robert Lipsyte’s account of covering the first Liston–Clay fight in Miami delivered the knockout punch:

In 1964 my time was not very valuable. I was a utility night rewrite writer and speechwriter at the Times when Sonny Liston fought Cassius Clay for the first time. The Times, in its wisdom, did not feel it was worth the time to send the real boxing writer. So they sent me down to Miami Beach and my instructions were, as soon as I got there, to rent a car and drive back and forth a couple of times between the arena, where the fight was going to be held in a week, and the nearest hospital. They did not want me wasting any deadline time following Cassius Clay into intensive care. I did that—if any of you ever get into trouble in South Beach, call me, I can tell you how to get there. I did it and drove to the Fifth Street Gym where Cassius was training. He was not there yet. 

As I walked up the stairs to the gym there was a kind of hubbub behind me. There were these four little guys in terrycloth cabana suits who were being pushed up the stairs by two big security guards. As I found out later, it was a British rock group in America. They had been taken to Sonny Liston for a photo op. He had taken one look at them and said “I’m not posing with those sissies.” Desperately, they brought the group over to Cassius Clay—to at least get a shot with him. They’re being pushed up the stairs, I’m a little ahead of them. When we get to the top of the stairs, Clay’s not there. The leader of the group says, “Let’s get the frack out of here. “ He turned around, but the cops pushed all five of us into a dressing room and locked the door. That’s how I became the fifth Beatle. [laughter]

They were cursing. They were angry. They were absolutely furious. I introduced myself. John said, “Hi, I’m Ringo.” Ringo said, “Hi, I’m George.” I asked how they thought the fight was going to go. “Oh, he’s going to kill the little wanker,” they said. Then they were cursing, stamping their feet, banging on the door. Suddenly the door bursts open and there is the most beautiful creature any of us had ever seen. Muhammad Ali. Cassius Clay. He glowed. And of course he was much larger than he seemed in photographs—because he was perfect. He leaned in, looked at them and said, “C’mon, let’s go make some money.” 

And then—if I hadn’t known better I would have sworn it was choreographed—he turned and the Beatles followed him out to the ring. You can see this now on YouTube [see below]. They followed him out to the ring and they began capering around the room. They lined up. He tapped Ringo. They all went down like dominoes. It was a marvelous, antic set piece. And then it was over and they left. Cassius Clay works out. At the end he’s back in the dressing room being rubbed down after the workout. He and I had yet to meet. He beckoned me over because he had seen me in the dressing room, and he said, “So, who were those little sissies?” [laughter] And then the best thing in the world happened. He won and I became the boxing writer.

 

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Permalink Reply by Ranjan D on July 2, 2012 at 7:34am

DB, Of COURSE I knew the store and who COA was from. I was the one who visited the store and I never hid that information. (My initial post said "I visited the store") You did not read what I later said, either. The price tag was NOT 9k. That was for a White Album 3 years ago. I said in my post "I first wrote to this forum 3 years ago when the same folks offered me a White Album autographed by all 4 Beatles over a 20 year period. Again, there was no provenance, CM was the authenticator, and they were willing to go down to 9k." You really must learn to read and understand what is being said. Again, a kindler, gentler, less arrogant approach to the way you deal with people, may go a long way! I chose to respond only because you misrepresented the facts once again.

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Permalink Reply by DB on July 3, 2012 at 3:36am

you are absolutely right - I call them like I see them.  I also picked up the wrong comment $$ post as you said it was >15k but less than 100K.   wouldn't it have been much easier to just start with the $25K selling price?     If you think this is arrogant u ain't see nuthin yet.  I will also look forward to chatting with them as I find it unusual that such an item would not be on their online site.  They do have an Ali glove listed but just not the one in this thread.

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Permalink Reply by Sidney Fields on July 1, 2012 at 5:41pm

I'm no expert on autographs or the Beatles.

But I do know a fair amount about scammers and fraud.  And I am a boxing fan.

I take Ranjan's post at face value.  He thinks the signatures look good but is dubious about the story he's getting from the seller.  In my view, rightly so.

If you're an authenticator, then you just want to see the item.  You don't want to be influenced by any other factors.  But he's not. And we're not.  So we want to know as much as possible.  So here's what we know:  

the signatures are on a boxing glove, 

the glove is one of two purportedly signed the day the Beatles met Cassius Clay on 2/18/64 @ the 5th St. Gym in Miami.

one glove was previously auctioned.

this glove supposedly was obtained in a "collection."

the store is providing a COA from (presumably) Christopher Morales.

the store is providing some type of "guarantee."

the store operates out of hotels.

the store wouldn't let Ranjan get an opinion from his own authenticator of choice.

the store told him provenance is unnecessary because all people really care about is the forensic examination.

Now, I'm guessing here, but based on the above information I don't think there's a single person reading this who believes the item is genuine.  Many of the above points are indicia of fraud in the autograph field.

A few other (I hope) brief observations:

It's true that some genuine items pop up without provenance.  But a gallery operating out of hotels buys such an item out of a collection and can't provide provenance?  Absolute nonsense.  The first question such a purported serious buyer would ask is "where did you get this?"  And apparently the store won't or can't provide the name of the collection (I bet I can predict the excuse if you ask for it).

If another pair was sold at auction, the store should be able to provide the auction house, the date and the amount for which they sold.

The gloves themselves appear to be of much older vintage than 1964. I mean MUCH older...like the 30's or 40's.  Now Angelo Dundee might have had them hanging around. But I doubt it.

The story of how the glove came to be signed should be well-documented.  As the incident has been reported, Clay kept the Beatles waiting.  After he arrived he laced up and hopped in the ring for the photos.  The Beatles left right afterwards.  So when were the gloves signed?  At whose request?  Who had them before they went to auction?  No answers?  Not surprising.

Ranjan, don't take offense.   Sure. some people can be a little harsh. But you came to the right place.  I'll offer only two bits of advice:

Don't be squeamish about naming stores or people offering items for sale.  After all, they're putting these items out in the stream of commerce for public consumption.  Not only do they deserve to be named, but wouldn't anyone legitimately selling an item want as much publicity as possible about it?

Also...please don't mention TRACKS & Frank Caiazzo in the same sentence as Christopher Morales, even if drawing a distinction.  I laughed out loud just seeing that juxtaposition.  Talk about night and day.

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Permalink Reply by Ranjan D on July 1, 2012 at 8:56pm

Trapper and Sidney,

Thank you.. I finally feel like I am among friends. Sidney, what a superb analysis! I did this to help others too, and I hope I have accomplished that. Sidney, I can see you mean well. This item was offered through Art of Music in Las Vegas. I did not want to do the wrong thing, but Sidney, you did a heck of a job advising me. So now you have the story. Thank you for your help folks, and those who were not so logical and thought I was up to no good, please read what Sidney said. If he could understand, you should have too. FYI, I first wrote to this forum 3 years ago when the same folks offered me a White Album autographed by all 4 Beatles over a 20 year period. Again, there was no provenance, CM was the authenticator, and they were willing to go down to 9k. That is when I started to read and learn about Beatles autographs! 

Thank you.

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Permalink Reply by DB on July 2, 2012 at 1:02am

@Sidney;  At first I thought it might have been Frank based on the initial post of "being sold, authenticated by a "well known" authenticator we all know"...

but just a correction; Clay wasn't always laced up as the pictures and videos will show and it is "possible" that something was signed.  However, if it was signed during this specific visit as has been claimed and this visit was nothing more than a publicity stunt one would also think it would have been captured by photo or video of the event or for that matter from sportswriters in attendance.   

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Permalink Reply by Sidney Fields on July 2, 2012 at 5:02am

Exactly.

Thanks, DB...and thanks for the Lipsyte material.

Almost everything is out there on the web if you look long enough.

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Permalink Reply by Fuddjcal on July 2, 2012 at 8:29am

and for clarification sake....there is a reason they call CM Christopher Moral Less & Christopher Moral ASS.

I am by no means a Beatles or Ali expert, but anyone buying that glove for anything more than .10 cents with  MoralAss's name associated with it should have their head examined. There is so much information on the internet now that speaks of Moral ass's handy work, and none of it good.

There was a website a long, long time ago that did provide a few authentic obscure GOLFERS that Moral Less apparently got right. 3 right out of the 1000's upon 1000's that bear his name does not instill confidence. Good Luck Ranjan, FUDD

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Permalink Reply by EjsWurhl on July 2, 2012 at 12:40pm

This buy will have you up all night.  I'd just get a nice signature set and use the rest for a vacation!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on July 2, 2012 at 12:40pm

Ranjan,

The Art of Music told you there were only two Beatles/Cassius Clay boxing gloves...one of which was auctioned a while back? Maybe you should ask them about this:

I was digging around and found this Beatles/Cassius clay "signed" glove that the Art of Music was offering in their Maui store about 5 years ago:

Oh, and ask them about this third signed glove someone took a picture of in the Mirage Hotel when the Art of Music had a store right outside the "LOVE" show. The pics are fuzzy but you can tell it's different than the other two:

While you're at it, ask them why Clay signed it "World Champ" if the fight that made him world champion was on February 25, 1964, a week after he met the Beatles and supposedly signed these gloves.

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Permalink Reply by Ranjan D on July 2, 2012 at 12:52pm

Steve, That is some amazing work. Note the different pen on one of them! And no one has ever mentioned Ali or the Beatles signing any autographs that day! Appreciate the discussion. In a short time I have learned enough to have not even asked for a "good price" on the glove. I was curious, because this was my second experience with Art of Music, with products that were too good to be true and had no provenance.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on July 2, 2012 at 2:53pm

Ranjan,

I asked around and found that no gloves have appeared in the market signed by the Beatles and Cassius Clay, that day or any other day. In fact, no one I asked was aware of anything signed by all 5 of them. I wasn't able to connect by phone with Roger to ask, so I'll ask him next time we talk...but odds are he hasn't if the others I asked haven't.

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