Authenticity is Everything
Do You OWN Research. DON'T Trust TPG Blindly. Details & Dates DO MATTER. KNOW Your Subject.
Hello All. PSA/DNA "Titanic" Underwood and Underwood press photo, date stamped April 19, 1912 (just 4 days after the sinking). Listed for $10,000. Unsold thankfully (I think). Neat, huh? Wow!
Unfortunately, that is obviously the just completed New York Chelsea Piers sitting right out the promenade windows on the left. It has been previously published as such. So...absolutely 100% sister Olympic in NYC, 1911, perhaps her Maiden Voyage. Now, I have been advising authors, researchers, modelers, publishing my own work in this area, dealing to collectors and selling to museums in the UK for only 17 years, but I am fairly certain the point was that Titanic did NOT reach her White Star Line Pier 59 in NY, which is IN this photograph? That negative number just sitting there...this also leads somewhere if one doesn't recognize what is right out the windows... ;) And as I mentioned, it has been published.
This is why I do my own research and why I don't buy if I can't "see" it myself. This is why I believe dates and details are extremely important. Know your subject. Buy with your own eye. Perhaps one can argue the cert is "just" for the print as published and the very incorrect subject title does not come into play... - some sort of "we are just a venue..." or some such nonsense. I think otherwise. Subject must be correct!
Below I have tinted the structures that serve to positively identify New York in green (it was green). This combined with the fact the the image was originally published before Titanic was fitted out (linked below) eliminate any other possibility. You can see these structures in my pier candid above it you look closely. How long it takes to change a database I do not know, but this is something else to remember every time I see those darn stickers:
Photo in question published as Olympic Jan. 1911 & Dec. 1912
And something special for me below - a very rare and literally unique hand-tinted candid photograph taken aboard the Adriatic, which took the very last living Titanic survivor, Millvina Dean, back to England with her mother and brother. Her father was lost. She signed this for me just before she died early in 2009. It was among her last autographs. I selected this image deliberately for the content - this would be where she and her mother and brother sat going back home. I like to imagine that is her mother and her looking into the camera seated center (this photo is a bit later - C. 1920). I have never seen anything like it - just common post cards, usually modern reproductions. The rest of these colored images were sold to and published by liner researcher and author Mark Chirnside, whose excellent books and articles I have advised and supplied images for going on many years. His work on Olympic is regarded as superb. Some of the Olympic photographs I identified and authenticated have been published by him. Some came from the same album as the pier photo above. I was contracted to do the color restorations of the Cunard liner Aquitania for his Aquitania: The Ship Beautiful. It was the first time 30 or so true color Kodachrome images from the late 1930's to 1951 have ever been published. A great honor for me.
EDIT TO ADD:
I'm back at home and have more time than I did when I posted. I decided to do the obvious and look for the image online - and it is there, misidentified at several websites. It is common then and now to mistake one for the other. Olympic was much more photographed for obvious reasons, and it was just easier to use the image at hand after the disaster, as in this instance. With a bit more poking (under 3 minutes in all), I just found the image in question online correctly identified as Olympic; originally published in Modern Sanitation, DECEMBER, 1911 vol. 8, No. 12 (Page 446-451) and JANUARY 1912 Vol. 9, No. 1 (Page 12-16).
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by goodcat on
-
pretty interesting detective work Eric. Nicely done.
And for me it's a prime example that the story does in fact matter in some cases to figure out authenticity. You knew the story of the Titanic in that it did not dock in NY. Put all the pieces together and realized this is false documentation or description if you will.
-
Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on
-
Thanks Goodcat. I'd hate to think the identification of the subject was determined by the blurb on the back - press and wire photos are notorious for incorrect dates etc. It seems this certificate might have cost $250. The fee is dependent on the declared value.
-
-
I've just learned the seller was notified of this error and responded with some interesting language, essentially saying the photograph was PROVEN genuine because it has a COA. This is a problem.
-
-
I can only imagine what kind of interesting language haha
Yes it does seem like a bit of a problem. You have your work cut out for you now. Let us know how it goes... good luck
-
-
Hi Goodcat, I am not personally involved with that. As the image was published months before Titanic was even finished, I think any argument would be useless. Titanic, at the time the photo was first published in January 1912, was still very much fitting out. And then there is NY out the window. My ship is Mauretania (MUCH faster and earlier), but I would bet there are structural differences in those promenade windows as well. So many indications. And still.
-
-
Ahh I see. I thought you were involved in communications with the seller in some way.
But still... It sure let's us know how much weight people put on certifications.
And I agree w/ joe that the seller should pull the item and dig a bit harder to find the true story. But to each their own I guess.
-
-
Yup! Different windows! I spoke to a friend last night who pointed out that those promenade windows on the left should be screened in were it Big T.
It is disturbing:
Published in at least 1 modern book as Olympic
Published in 1911/12 as Olympic (online as well print)
NY is out the window June 1911 Olympic
Olympic's promenade windows clearly
Should be assumed to be Olympic until shown otherwise (even if you don't see NY, because Olympic was routinely substituted for Titanic in the press, especially after the disaster).
-
-
Any progress on what's happening w/ this particular item?
Has anyone contacted PSA/DNA?
-
-
Hi GoodCat. Well, yes, I did. I wrote Mr. Yee at PSA/DNA with the three strongest factual bits of evidence and a link to the auction. How we might know what happens I have no idea. The liner community can spot this photo in seconds as Olympic, probably see it as some oddity with a COA and have moved on. I'm not fully sure, so I added my voice.
-
-
Thanks GC :)
-
Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on
-
If PSA is interested in addressing the issue, they'll either contact you for more info or remove the item from the certification database. That was my experience anyway.
© 2025 Created by Steve Cyrkin, Admin.
Powered by
Badges | Report an Issue | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service
