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Permalink Reply by Sidney Fields on March 8, 2013 at 1:23pm

E'lyn Bryan

She's been involved as an "authenticator" in South Florida.  I believe she was (or perhaps still is)  involved in real estate, as well.

Someone I know told me several years ago that she said to him that she had never been wrong.
To me, that kind of statement speaks volumes.

Steve may be able to add more perspective here.

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Permalink Reply by Gatsby on March 8, 2013 at 2:24pm

wasn't she along with morales authenticators for american royal arts along with a few others?

i suppose there goes the never been wrong record if accurate based on reports.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on March 8, 2013 at 1:33pm

Whenever I see "forensic document examiner" anymore, it seems like it's more of a red flag than an actual credential of any sort.

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Permalink Reply by JAKE JONES on March 8, 2013 at 7:56pm

Why a red flag?

 

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Permalink Reply by Carl Ryan on March 8, 2013 at 8:32pm

Because they are almost always bad news. In fact, i dont know of one FDE that any autograph collector would trust. They may be good in certain fields, but autographs is not one of them it seems. FDEs are almost always used by forgers, and b/c the FDE title fools alot of people who think they can trust them. I literally dont know of one FDE who is competent to cert autographs of any kind. Id be interested if anyone can provide the name of a trusted FDE when it comes to autographs. They just arent out their. And it throws up alot of red flags to me as well when i see an FDE being used to authenticate autographs.

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Permalink Reply by W.W. Dunbar on March 9, 2013 at 9:47am

Hey Jake,

I do not know anything about E.C. Bryan, but can tell you a little about questioned document examiners.  They are a special breed.  Most major colleges & universities do not offer course study in this discipline, more or less bona fide degree programs.  To be accredited by one of the major organizations you typicallly have to go through an apprentice program for several years with a certified DE, and then take a battery of tests and examinations.

I have read up on some of the tools & techniques that document examiners use.  Typically they want to see as many exemplars of a person's handwritting as possible, with a minimum number being 25.  For autograph collectors this can be quite challenging, and often requires a lot of research.  Paying a DE examiner to do that research is expen$ive.

When it comes to exemplars I like government documents, because authenticity is not an issue.  Recently I located a 1935 Social Security Application of a famous person through the Freedom of Imformation Act.  It cost me $29.00, but it was a a wonderful example of that person's signature.  Over the years I have found nice exemplars with marriage licenses, articles of incorporation, draft cards, and so forth.  

Hope this helps,

W.W.    

 

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on March 9, 2013 at 10:15am

My sense is credible "forensic document examiners" work primarily with clients such as attorneys, private investigators, etc. where they charge an hourly rate. Likely a big difference between this breed of FDE and the ones who pump out generic "COAs" to dubious mass submitters.

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Permalink Reply by W.W. Dunbar on March 9, 2013 at 11:18am

Credibility is everything.  When it comes to questioned document examiners you need to ask the right questions.  How many times have they testified in court?  What organizations are they acreditted by?  What law enforcement agencies have they worked with?  Can they provide you with examples of case studies they have worked on?

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Permalink Reply by JAKE JONES on March 9, 2013 at 2:32pm

Many thanks for the insight guys.

 

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Permalink Reply by JAKE JONES on March 9, 2013 at 2:40pm

So if a autograph item has a Certifacte of Authenticity from a Forensic examiner , like E.C Bryan with a raised seal, it should be bogus. " RED FLAG ".  Thanks!

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Permalink Reply by Sidney Fields on March 9, 2013 at 5:59pm

There's more to it than that, of course, Jake.

Court testimony or work for lawyers and cops really doesn't mean much. Unfortunately, if you check the records, there are FDE's who have testified many times and also worked with law enforcement. Yet, these same people have been linked to some of those accused of selling autograph forgeries.  That's because  legal and law enforcement people don't know any more about FDE's than most autograph buffs.

Three quick points that are of some value in assessing FDE's:

1.  Why are they "authenticating" autographs?  Bona Fide FDE's generally assess documents.  They employ a wide range of techniques in doing so.  If they used the same techniques on autographs, their prices would be prohibitive for all but the most valuable autograph pieces.  If they're charging just a few bucks, the question is what kind of assessment are you really getting for your money?  And if they do wholesale piece work certification, isn't there every economic incentive to "authenticate" everything that comes in?

2.  What is their database of relevant exemplars?  Also as mentioned above, autograph authenticators are only as good as their databases and knowledge of verifiable bona fide signatures. So where does an FDE's database come from and what does it contain?  If it's mostly or entirely items that the person has authenticated, then that's another big Red Flag..

3.  With what entity did the FDE obtain certification? Don't look for organizational "membership"...look for "certification."  Some organizations allow anyone who pays a fee to be a "member." Certification is what counts.

All the names and all the FDE-related organizations can get very confusing.  Perhaps unscrupulous examiners count on that. But there are only two bodies recognized by the American Academy of Forensic Sciences ( http://www.aafs.org/) and the Forensic Sciences Accreditation Board (http://thefsab.org/)   They are the ABFDE (American Board of Forensic Document Examiners and the BDFE (the Board of Forensic Document Examiners).  These two entities, the ABFDE & the BDFE have real standards and real tests. 

Here's the ABFDE:

http://www.abfde.org/htdocs/certification/QualificationsandRequirem...

Contrast it, for example with the NADE...(National Association of Document Examiners):

http://www.documentexaminers.org/certification.shtml  (NADE)

And you mentioned E'lyn Bryan.  According to her web site below, she is certified by the National Questioned Document Association.

(Bryan's web site ; http://floridadocumentexaminer.com/)

Do a Google search.  See if you can find the NQDA. The organization, once based in Dallas, is now defunct. Does that necessarily prove anything?  No. I know people who graduated from a four year college that no longer exists. But it does raise questions.

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Permalink Reply by W.W. Dunbar on March 9, 2013 at 8:03pm

A few years ago my neighbor's ex-wife was gunned down by her second husband.  My daughter went to school with their little girl (the victim's daughter), and the murder trial was front page news in my community.  Needless to say, it was a pretty traumatic time for everyone. 

One of the key pieces of evidence in the case was a "checklist" found in the defendant's home that described how he was going to commit the crime.  Prosecutors hired a document examiner to evaluate the handwriting on the checklist, and to compare it with known examples of the accused killer.

The document examiner in the case had over 20 years of experience in the field, and had received his training with the FBI.  He had testified in court as an "expert" in over 500 different cases.  His resume, and credentials were impeccable to say the least.  I am sure the State spent a small fortune for his services, but his testimony was key in establishing a motive, and in securing a conviction in the case.

When it comes to assessing contemporary autographs, enlisting the services of a DE is simple cost prohibitive.  If you are working with a high end piece, then their services might very well be justified.

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