We are an eBay affiliate and may be compensated for clicks on links that result in purchases.

Charlton Heston - secretarials, variations & authentics (post 'em here)

This is the place for the discussion as to the follow-up for the secretarial study thread.

That thread; proposed;

The Theory
Photographs and other memorabilia sent to Mr. Heston's office were signed by a secretary. However, Mr. Heston did authentically sign books through-the-mail.

Real vs. Secretary
In authentic signatures, the R in "Charlton" is distinctly a lowercase "r" and less than half the height of the L. The first four letters are clearly "Char."

In secretarial signatures, the R looks much more like a lowercase "l" and is about the same height as the L. So, the first four letters appear to be "Chall."

and it seems to have merit. However, in looking at hundreds of Hestons of late there are many that fall into the above theory and yet quite a few variations that aren't so clean. There are no sacred cows in this thread but do keep it civil.

Bear in mind as you cascade thru the many examples below there are clearly some that fall into this, some that don't and an interesting variation.

Some commentors have been quick to point out that dealers and sellers of these items may have fallen into following a "bogus" exemplar. I will post Jan Schray's exemplars and the "secretarial" one touted here will be found in her 1997 exemplar book. Thus, without a date on COAs it's hard to tell when something was sold.

Cyrkin in the other thread opted to close it with a number of justifications; ... indisputable work. It's at risk of being adulterated by Hestons being presented as either genuine, out and out forgeries, or variations of known secretarials without the painstaking, focused research and consensus-building that made this study so valuable in the first place. That's beyond the scope of this discussion and is putting the study's clarity and integrity at risk.

I for one could not disagree with this rationale moreso. It is thru the posting of perceived hestons that either lends support, refutes or enhances the theory. I noticed the updates to the original blog include; I will note that, out a hundreds of exemplars, I found a handful of books that did not have a distinct "r" formation. My theory is these books may have been through-the-mail exemplars signed by a secretary. The reason for this could be that Mr. Heston's schedule did not allow for signing at that time or, once his illness took hold, secretaries began signing books through the mail as well as photos.

I've also noted this in same discussion with Zipper and there was a suspicion that other forgeries were apparent. it is the continued flow of questionable non-authentic items that gives strength to any theory. I'll attempt to capture the many examples before they are arbitrarily removed.

6/13/12 - Rules of the Thread;

R1 - stay on subject (don't care for moderated blogs but since owners of threads have little recourse to have comments removed at their discretion).

R2 - if you are going to post a link than at a MINIMUM post the picture of the item. The secretarial study thread has a number of links to non-existent photos. Esp Ebay ones as they have been removed by EBAY or no longer visible. If you don't know how then after you post the comment pm me and I'll capture the picture for posterity.

2 members like this

▶ Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on September 18, 2012 at 7:39am

And the COA has an address in Las Vegas. The double kiss of death.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on September 23, 2012 at 5:34am

finally..... removed.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on September 19, 2012 at 6:58am

Going back and forth on this one. I keep going down the side of not authentic based on earlier examples of this end drop of style. Any other perspectives? It is in violation of the ebay posting policy as it claims to have an associated JG Autograph COA but it is not displayed. It's the JG part that caused me to dbl check my viewpoint.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on September 19, 2012 at 7:04am

I saw that one myself and was not sure. The general shape is okay, but it is a bit shaky and tails off weakly. Could be the result of a standing signature.

It's either a pretty decent fake or a less than prime real example.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on September 23, 2012 at 5:42am

that makes 2 of us... Bob or Brick what is your nickel's worth? This seller's past listings do appear to have authentic ones....

now if I can just get them to change Charlton Heston to Charles Harper... all is good!

Seems to have slowed down for the moment with the non-authentic ones popping up. Appears many secretarials are now being offered as preprints or rps.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on September 29, 2012 at 3:47am

finally no more "charlie harper" masquerading as Heston. This listing (140853754705) has been removed, or this item is not available.

or as Charlie Sheen might say; winning lol as I just made the name connection

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on October 20, 2012 at 8:14am

making a pass thru the Hestons and not as many secretarial signed ones as there once was... but still a few. Speaking of which here are two signed ones that I don't think we have seen before. Has anyone else? Leaning ok on the A., but waffling on B (?).

but speaking of not waffling the following one deserves special mentioning since it was "obtained in person" as this seller claims. Seems the seller's EBAY handle is quite appropriate.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Brick Hunter on October 21, 2012 at 1:26am

Hey DB. A is definitely authentic and B is definitely not authentic. B is a forgery.

Here's a recent Char forgery which thankfully didn't sell.

Plus another Char forgery from the infamous eBay seller bzarrillo (this item goes up every so often - luckily it hasn't sold yet)

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by DB on October 21, 2012 at 1:47am

that is odd as bob zarrillo, StarMemories_of_illinois, is an AML member and has chimed in on the heston signature study thread.

▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mike Sibley on October 24, 2012 at 2:13pm

Hello to all, Mike Sibley here from the UK. It appears I have been a bit slow on the uptake as I didn't realise this thread had continued on after the closure of the Secretarial study thread. Better late than never I guess!

I was pleased to see that many of my in person Heston signatures have been used to continue this thread. I have also continued to purchase various Heston signed items to add to my collection, so thought I would share some with you. The first are two theatre playbills from two productions in the UK. The Caine Mutiny one is a typical held in the hand and signed outside the stage door in my opinion.

Here are four 10x8 photographs, three of them using his regular Caligraphy marker.

The next is an index card which the seller sold as signatures from Mr and Mrs Heston during the Love Letters run in the UK. However, it is clear that both signatures have been done by Charlton Heston, the Lydia Clarke Heston signature is also in his hand. I have met Mrs Heston and she signed for me - her signature is very different.

Finally, to add a little more evidence to the belief that Carol Lanning, Charlton Heston's personal assistant is the person mostly likely to signed the 'Chall' secretarials, here is something to run by you:

When I first met Mr Heston back in 1985 at the Queens Theatre in London after a performance of The Caine Mutiny Court Martial, I recall a theatre assistant coming out the stage door announcing to the crowd waiting that Ben Cross (in the play) would not be coming out to sign due to other commitments. But in his hand he had some theatre flyers from the play (not many) that had been pre-signed by Ben Cross and indeed Charlton Heston. I of course got to this guy as quickly as possible in order to obtain one for my collection - which I did. Below, I have shown this very flyer, which at the time I thought was handsigned by Mr Heston, plus a later handsigned example I purchased. The right hand signed flyer is the one I obtained in 1985 and it clearly shows the 'Chall' signature which we now know to be secretarial. This got me thinking as why would it have been signed by a secretary back stage at a theatre in the UK? I think I may have found the answer: On page 502 of Mr Heston's autobiography 'In The Arena', he talks about the winter of 1985 in London for the Caine Mutiny play. He talks about who is and has been there with him and states "Carol lanning had been there through most of the rehearsals". It is therefore quite likely to me that the 'Chall' signature on the flyer given to me in 1985 was signed by Carol Lanning during her time in London. Any thoughts?