Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael Kasmar-AutographPros.com on April 7, 2015 at 12:53pm

Depends if you're dealing with modern or vintage memorabilia and if you are dealing with resale to society in general or educated buyers and/or auction houses.  For the latter, yes... but in regards to the uneducated masses, many would sooner have a sticker from an authentication company on the item than a rock solid story of when/where/how.  

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on April 7, 2015 at 1:20pm

Anyone can make up a story of when they got the autograph, and with a little research even make it believable and irrefutable. To me, the autograph itself is where the value is. The story is cool, but unless it's a piece of history I don't really care if you got it after a concert on a cold Decembers night, just that the autograph is authentic.

With historical items, the story becomes very important, but for modern stuff it doesn't really matter in my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by James on April 7, 2015 at 9:55pm

Mike (and anyone else), I recently purchased a JFK signed and inscribed copy of "Profiles in Courage". In my opinion, the book came with great provenance. It was signed on the campus of the University of Kansas on Nov. 7, 1957. It came with a sworn-affidavit from the young woman who obtained the autograph in-person as well as a "play-by-play" account of the happening. The University of Kansas is my alma mater by the way. I have uploaded a pic of the affidavit and story. So what do you (or anyone else) think of the provenance?

Attachments: No photo uploads here

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Permalink Reply by James on April 7, 2015 at 9:56pm

And here is the affidavit.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on April 7, 2015 at 10:02pm

What ties the physical book to that paperwork if you were to resell it?

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Permalink Reply by James on April 7, 2015 at 10:14pm

Well, essentially nothing, other than the brief description regarding the woman's name. She says her maiden name was Ormsby, and then-Senator Kennedy made it look like Wormsby, which is in fact the case. However, unfortunately, there's no attached picture of the signature to the affidavit, as would be the case with an LOA from PSA/DNA or JSA.

If I ever wanted to sell it, I would probably get an LOA from one of them. I just think her account of how it happened is a pretty nice story. And to me personally, being that it occurred at my alma mater adds extra meaning. I also like the fact that I can visualize JFK signing this book for this young freshman. I believe the story. So I like fact that I know how it all came about. Furthermore, I think I have a pretty good grip on many of JFK's often bewildering array of autograph styles.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on April 7, 2015 at 10:36pm

It's definitely an awesome story and it's really cool that it's tied to your alma mater which makes it special to you, but as far as adding value, I just don't see it. Like you said, if you were to resell it you would seek a third party authentication on the autograph, not the story.

Also my point was that anyone could scribble a signature in his book and claim this paperwork was associated with it, and most criminals wouldn't think twice about faking an affidavit and a story if they thought it helped them sell forgeries. I think it is a cool story, but not concrete provenance by any means.

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Permalink Reply by James on April 7, 2015 at 10:53pm

I absolutely see where you're coming from. And I agree. Somebody could just fake a signature and associate a couple of pieces of paper with an item quite easily. So we're in complete agreement here. Of course, legally-speaking, since she was sworn under oath (if the affidavit is real), I believe she could be charged with perjury if she were lying.

I'm just curious. What would concrete provenance be?

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Permalink Reply by James on April 8, 2015 at 12:17am

Lol. I'm guessing probably verifiable pics.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on April 8, 2015 at 6:42am

Yes, but you would have to be able to prove the story was false which is almost impossible to do.

To make that provenance more concrete you would need something to tie the physical book to the paperwork, photos or a unique description, and even then both of those can be faked as well.

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Permalink Reply by Rock G III on April 8, 2015 at 7:08am

Yup provence in the autograph world is basically useless. anyone can make up a story and top that with how easily photoshop is, and how easy it is to obtain old backstage passes or tickets they are really meaningless outside of the original owner if real. 

How many times have I seen here the best provence in the world come up wrong? I can not tell you how many times I heard something like "My grandparents got this signed by Babe Ruth when a child they told us the story every christmas" then you look closer and its a preprinted ball or a ball signed by a ball boy.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 7, 2015 at 1:40pm

You posted a fantastic question, Alan. I'm looking forward to this discussion.

How is your collection almost wholly based on great provenance?

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