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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on January 26, 2019 at 12:45am

This discussion hasn't been inadvertently deleted?

OK, a Representative from the great state of Arizona asked me weeks ago to comment. I put it off because my lumbago kicked up, and try as I might, I can't get my foot up to my mouth. 

But I'm going to the chiropractor tomorrow, so you can look forward to me to awing you with insight sometime this weekend.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on February 2, 2019 at 8:28pm

Finally here, only a week late of a month late.

From what I've seen posted on Autograph Live, Press Pass appears to have a lot of certified autographs, mostly BAS, that don't cut the mustard. I've never comprehensively checked their inventory myself beyond looking for specific items, but if they have a lot of questionable autographs like the ones posted here, then they deserve all the criticism they get...and then some. 

I think that most of the ones called out are music, is that right? What about their inventory overall? What percentage do you realistically estimate isn't good? I haven't checked. And in the areas where you see the most autographs you think are bad, are there names that stand out? I recall mostly Pink Floyd, because the band's a passion of Seamus.

I recall a PPC BAS McCartney that made me CRINGE as clear as a bell (no pun intended). Some Michael Jacksons likewise. Then there was the McCartney-signed Hofner Bass (was there more than one?) where the signature on the pickguard perfectly matched one signed in a US Edition of High in the Clouds. I don't recall who certified it.

Selling that printed David Gilmore cassette after PPC undoubtedly knew it was printed is inexcusable. Especially since it was called out again a second time when it appeared on eBay too. If that's the mindset of PPC management, that alone is all I need to know.

I'd be shocked if BAS knowingly certified that printed Gilmore, though. I think it's a TDF: too damned fast. The autograph looks right: correct style and the ink probably looks real from a foot or so away. But once the authenticator thought it looked real they didn't look any further. At shows I've seen TPAs work at speeds where I'd be surprised if they caught a good printed autograph unless it's a known preprint.

Here's a PSA/DNA Ty Cobb that was called in out 2012 because it's a print of the real deal. Things like this happen when an authenticator doesn't look carefully:

If BAS is intentionally calling fakes genuine, why did their president buy a fake Knute Rockne back when Tony showed it to him? And in a Facebook group, I saw Grad say BAS would buy back a Harrison Ford forgery for $1,000 that he was shocked they certified.

I've been selling inventory from when I was a dealer for a few years back in 2006-2010. In January I brought BAS about 45 signed celebrity baseballs. Every autograph passed except for 2  that Grad said he couldn't certify because while he thought the were probably real, he didn't have exemplars to compare them with. These 2, Keifer Sutherland and Martha Hackett:

BAS should be called out on the things you've found and quality needs to improve significantly, but to call them the new Global? If you had to buy one or another, sight unseen, which would you buy?

And to say BAS is comparable to Global—if it isn't deserved—could unfairly harm tens of thousands of collectors who have BAS autographs. 

Want to be the Consumer Reports of autographs? I'd love that! We need one! You'll have my full support. But be thorough and objective. 

How about this for starters: Find 500 each BAS and Global autographs at random, see how accurate they are, how they compare to each other, and post your findings. Why not include JSA, PSA/DNA, GFA and AAU while you're at it?

Why not add 500 random unauthenticated autographs from eBay? Then you can objectively determine if TPAs make collecting autographs safer or are just a sales gimmick and should go away.

Some of the things Tony said were troubling. If BAS really called known forgeries genuine as part of "the bigger picture," they should be tarred and feathered.

But some things Tony said were not troubling in the least:

Tony said that all Rick's autographs would pass: Well of course he could say that...he knows Rick. I know Rick. Any autograph Rick got in-person that didn't pass authentication would either be atypical or an authentication mistake. Anything Rick bought (if he bought any) would have to be slam-dunk real for him to buy it.

Grad didn't know Mike Trout's autograph: I never asked Grad, but when Grad was leaving PSA, a major sports dealer who was a big PSA/DNA client told me that Grad specialized in '90s-back sports and Brian or Zack—I think it was Brian—generally handled more current sports. I think specialization is the way it should be.

Grad looking online for exemplars? Grad couldn't take any exemplars with him when he left PSA. They are PSA's property and that would be theft, even if he took the image himself, because he was their employee.

But there's nothing wrong with looking online—as long as you know what to look for. It's done all the time, by legit and experienced experts:

You want Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan exemplars? Look no further than Upper Deck.

You want the Eagles? Four of them signed and sold hundreds of guitars.

There are untold thousands of PSA autographs of all kinds online at any time that Grad authenticated himself.

You want to be really sure something's real? Google the name and "Autograph Live."

Grad is responsible for everything, good and bad, that BAS does. Just like at PSA/DNA from 2005 till he left, Grad is the boss at Beckett. The buck stops at him. Make sure he knows where you think he's screwing up.

For some, though, nothing Grad does will ever be right. If Grad ran onto the railroad tracks to save a baby from being run over by a train, someone would say there must have been a buck under her.

But remember when John Gonzalez was at eBay and forgeries were becoming less of a problem thanks to the EMR program? He sent Grad autographs to review probably every day. I imagine Grad spent 100 hours a year or more helping eBay. PSA didn't bill them a cent.

When Muhammad Ali died and untold thousands of forgeries flooded eBay starting that same day, eBay asked Grad to find them. He did, right away, no charge. They disappeared as quickly as they arrived.

When a writer for Autograph magazine published a secretarial among his TTM successes, Grad let me know. Then he offered to review all autographs in the magazine, and he did. Except the music, which Roger Epperson reviewed, for years. Again for free. Between Roger and Steve, we never had a problem again. Roger and Steve were always there when I needed authentication help. 

And you know, his appearance on Pawn Stars the last 5 years or so has increased the public's awareness of forgeries and the importance of making sure what you have is real.

In other words...the guy ain't all bad.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on February 3, 2019 at 12:07am

Dealers should have a lifetime guarantee of authenticity, even for already certified autographs. Many don't, so they don't have an incentive to make sure the TPA didn't make a mistake.

I wanted to see if PPC had a guarantee. On their authenticity page, it says:

Press Pass Collectibles offers only Authentic In-Person Autographs as well as a 100% money back lifetime Certificate of Authenticity with every single autograph we sell.

Is that the same as a 100% money back lifetime guarantee? I don't know, but it certainly implies that.

But then under Terms & Conditions it says:

This site and the materials and products on this site are provided "as is" and without warranties of any kind, whether express or implied. To the fullest extent permissible pursuant to applicable law, Press Pass Collectibles disclaims all warranties, express or implied, including, but not limited to, implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose and non-infringement.

The way I read it, PPC disclaims the guarantee of authenticity it gave in the Authenticity section. 

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Permalink Reply by Paul on February 3, 2019 at 12:29am

So what happens if they sell or you buy through an auction if the autograph isn't real?

Great idea that every dealer who comes under one of these umbrellas that they should have a refundable return, it seems like a bit of a one way street with some of these dealers trying to cash in. 

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Permalink Reply by marc e on February 3, 2019 at 1:08am

As an inperson what determines if its not real. It could pass a tpa today then 5 years from now a different tpa say no  I when us when and who do u trust. I always give the back story on my stuff and let the buyer use a tpa as his expensive if they want. If it  fails I always take it back minus the tpa fees but I'm up front about my policy.  If I was to spend time getting my stuff certied I could charge a premium for them but the other way I'm passing on the savings to the buyer. 

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Permalink Reply by Paul on February 3, 2019 at 4:05am

So if I buy a Madonna signed guitar from autograph pros and it turns out to be an authentic book page, could I get a refund. Autographs pros trusted seller?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on February 3, 2019 at 5:02am

They wouldn't knowingly sell one. I'm sure they'd give you a refund.

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Permalink Reply by Corey Moylan on February 3, 2019 at 5:30am

They wouldn’t knowingly sell you one? Autograph pros makes those!

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on February 3, 2019 at 7:36am

Seamus, Bubbles is talking about something like the Paul McCartney pickguards where the signature is transferred to them from a book. It actually may not even be the actual signature. 

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Permalink Reply by Corey Moylan on February 3, 2019 at 7:40am

Yes I understand. I am also saying that is a practice that Autograph pros currently performs with their ‘signed pickguards’ - aka the Madonna.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on February 3, 2019 at 7:46am

Could you please show me an example? 

I just realized that Bubbles is Paul. Paul, please change back to your regular member name. 

Permalink Reply by marc e on February 3, 2019 at 7:47am

if your buying a autographed pickguard or guitar with one on and it was just a pasted page on or something like that I would say very misleading so yes.

as I said in my original comment im very transparent I tell u exactly what u are buy and who was  the person who got it signed ,your paying for my service

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