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JSA and PSA - what has happened?

First let me say , I have always been a proponent of 3^rd party independent authentication, because I believe it curtails the forgery industry. And I still believe that.

However I have always had mixed feelings about the competency of these 3rd party authentication services. And sometimes their questionable competence is enough to drive me to Rant, on internet autograph forums… Here’s why:

1. It is a sloppy highly subjective process more than any other collecting genre.
2. After all these years, STILL No standards that the public is aware of, which 1. above is a product of.
3. Most Authenticators have no documented governing credentials.
4.There’s a “good ole boy” network of players that influence (often negatively) the autograph collecting industry. For example, the same autograph can fail from one source but Pass from a “network member” source. Just look at the examples below of PSA and JSA certified JFK signatures and note that some are a dead match to the one I sent JSA, that they could NOT authenticate. But, PSA ad JSA seem to authenticate countless cryptic very similar JFK signatures for autograph auction houses that offer high volumes of business for PSA and JSA.

A couple months ago I acquired a JFK Signed campaign insert (see below).   I thoroughly researched it with Hamilton’s “JFK Robot” book, JFK Presidential appointments and letters, and PSA and JSA certified IN-person style signatures of that era (1960). And found Several highly consistent matches to the one below I sent to JSA.     After about 4 weeks JSA returned mine with one of the “we can’t opin” letters and a credit of my $150 to use on future authentications.      Not sure I’ll ever have to use it as my confidence with PSA and JSA has dwindled over the years. If you cant opin after 4 weeks with my JFK how can I expect you to authenticate other signatures?

One of the reasons I option for JSA over PSA is at least they will Opt out . Whereas my experience with PSA has been if they don’t know , they’ll just fail it and cash your check.    But, that’s another story.

These repeating experiences with PSA and JSA has been the #1 reason I have gradually lost interest in autographs.     I won’t use the word ”shady” but it is a highly flawed collecting genre with no reliable resource of "experts" to consult, far more vulnerable than any other genre I have experienced. And being born with Collecting ADD, Ive collected about everything over the past 35 years..

So today after getting Another “Cannot Opin” from JSA, I am truly dispirited with autograph collecting and selling.

And dont get me started on these self proclaimed "best in the business" chest thumpers... ,.... I'd just ask, based on what data or examination credentials ??

I guess I could always send this JFK Signed item into one of the auctions houses or dealers who have closer "relationship" with JSA or PSA and get an immediate letter of authenticity.

Rant over…

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on August 30, 2017 at 8:30am

Of course. But I am not sure that is what I am hearing.

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Permalink Reply by Bernie on September 1, 2017 at 5:40pm

I had a tough time figuring out a good place to enter, so I chose to go to the root of the issue and offer a couple of thoughts for discussion

1- Is PSA still the "dominant" force now that Steve Grad is gone? Like him or not, and I am sure both caps can fill out a rally, he has a sound reputation in the business, and it is now Beckett's gain. Would one still want PSA above others? (I for one can not tell Joe Orlando from Tony Orlando, and I know PSA went out to recruit a replacement. The slab certs are not dated, so it is difficult to tell if a key auto (Ruth, Gehrig, etc) did get a "look over" by Grad or not (note: I am of the opinion that Grad got to review all the high value items in order to avoid/minimize potential corporate embarrassment when a Sharpie signed Babe Ruth autograph got a slab.....)

Having said that, it brings me to the second point: 2- I recently noted an AH based in Dallas Tx is now using SGC as an autograph certification, so I looked up the SGC lineup: Larry Studebaker, formerly of JSA, but I also noticed Mike Root was not there, ... some more digging, and lo and behold, I found CAS (where Mike Root authenticates). So now we have PSA, JSA, SGC, CAS and Beckett. They all have sound people with reasonable credentials, and , no, they do not need to pass the bar, get en engineering license or do a medical residence to do what they do.

FWIW, I prefer JSA based on personal experience. They are not perfect, bt they take their job seriously as I can attest on a NYY singed ball with Lou Gehrig+ 21 names, where they recalled the LoA (the Gehrig signature was fine) because they found a couple of signatures (Selkirk, Pearson) which were deemed to be "clubhouse", and wanted to set the record straight. In all probability, the profit on the Ball LoA was gone as they had to issue another LoA and Issued me a credit for the trouble (I did not have to send the ball back, they had the photos, and their Quality Control found out the error after the original LoA was issued. To me it said a lot about them. Do they do it all the time? I do not know, but that is how you gain someone's respect.

3- So my third topic for discussion: Is the business of authentication/certification set to become greater than the business of autographs? No inventory, overhead on par with AH o dealer, minimal cash flow, hard not to believe it is a sound investment. As long as there are Auction Houses, and as long as eBay business model continues to support the ruthless sellers, and as long as Sports Cards companies continue to falter on their "warranties" to the public, this will b a growth business.

I will close with a comment I read recently from Jim Stinson (highly respected autograph dealer, recently retired) His comment, which I take to be a lament now, is that when there are more authenticators than dealers, it is a sign to bow out gracefully.....

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Permalink Reply by Rick Meyer on September 1, 2017 at 6:13pm

Problem with all this is the transparency of it. If PSA or Steve Grad looked at something and got it right he'd be the first guy to pat himself on the back. If he got it wrong he blames the unnamed authenticator for it and changes the company's opinion on it. Grad is no better an authenticator than many of the folks here. He branded his name early and has left a cushion of folks to blame between him and a mistake. He follows or is sent the threads about him here when they are sent to him by one of his cheerleaders. He can always pop in and dispute this stuff but doesn't because he would get rag dolled over here.

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Permalink Reply by Bernie on September 1, 2017 at 8:36pm

I do agree with the accountability, which I view as having "by name" reviewers (SGC, CSA, Beckett) I mentioned that I do value the JSA service and integrity based on a personal experience, which may or may not sway me on accountability. I think the example provided for JSA shows some degree of accountability

I can not comment on the grad issues, as I do not have knowledge on the details. I believe he is an above average expert, not perfect (no one is) but, unfortunately, I do not have, nor do I know anyone (maybe a subject for a new thread or blog on AML) who keeps track of "big whiffs" by the authenticators. Clearly PSA has used techniques where one does not know who reviewed o opined on an item, as tey either get a slab or a generic letter signed by a random "top gun"

This is why I like Epperson (one man music TPA) and have some bent to SGC, CSA and Beckett since they have pretty much established who does the cert.

It would be real nice, and I believe it would help the business a lot if the TOAs were to carry insurance and stand behind their mistakes. They charge over 10% of the value of the autographs, and you expect them to be right at least 90% of the time, so their fees would essentially double so insurance can be carried. Still have the issue of "how to prove an error", but again, a majority opinion or an arbitration board set by the experts themselves could do that. Does this have a chance of happening? No, it will cut into profits and create actual metric on them (the one with fewest errors will save on insurance, get more business, the one with the most will eventually go out of business)

So let's be realistic. AHs do need and control TPAs in order to minimize the liability to the $M+ business of auctions. TPAs create a "public service" by weeding out the unscrupulous sellers, and in essence generate a "Robin Hood" mindset where the average Joe Consumer believes TPAs are here to help him, and where Joe C does not understand that he is the only one paying full price for an LoA (AHs get steep discounts which translate into possibly more errors)

Probably going off subject, so let me bring it back in the box: Many consumers see the TPA cert as a "UL" type certification on their product. I truly appreciate the AML forum, and recognize that there are a lot of competent people here, Net54, etc who are as good, maybe better than the TPAs, but, if it is accountability, it is not something that can easily be found here. Nonetheless, kudos to AML and the folks here, but, I think there is room for TPAs as well, maybe not all equally, and maybe with some (well deserved) skepticism

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on September 2, 2017 at 8:17am

I cannot understand this obsession with authentication. I may be stupid but I just trust my own judgement. I have never thought twice about buying an unauthenticated item on ebay, even from people in strange countries or non-specialists.

Before the days of the internet I certainly made a few expensive mistakes but I don't think I've made too many since then (famous last words). In most cases you can just tell if something looks right and if the seller is honest. Common sense goes a long way.

I have never counted how many autographs I have but it probably runs înto the low hundreds. I have never paid for anything to be "authenticated" and only one of the items (a Jean Harlow) has some sort of holographic sticker on the back, which is nameless and therefore useless.

Another item (Madonna) that I bought on ebay arrived with a fancy looking letter of authenticity from a well known and (I think) respected autograph dealer that wasn't even mentioned in the listing. Ironically, I proudly posted it on here and it got a universal thumbs down!

Although I detest forgers and dislike exploitive authenticators they haven't turned me off the hobby at all. I may think differently if I ever try to sell my unathenticated autographs of course.

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Permalink Reply by Tunky on September 2, 2017 at 8:34am

That's the point: authenticated items always sell faster and for higher prices. And if you decide to sell The Beatles autographs on ebay- they can be removed if they don't have COA from the reputable company.

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Permalink Reply by Bernie on September 2, 2017 at 8:50am

I would not buy something I do not think is authentic even if it is slabbed. I am also not concerned once I own it, but I admit, I am a lot more finicky about items on sale which are not authenticated for a similar logic: "buyer beware" so there is some peace of mind with the cert. Issue is what do my heirs do if/when I am gone, and I also do not want some unscrupulous dealer "lowballing" because of the cost of authentication and so on (see what Harrison does on Pawn Stars to lowball an item he will make no less than 100% profit on a quick sale)

So unlike an appendix or a hemorrhoid (ironically a potential descriptor for some TPAs) they (TPAs in general) do have some useful purpose

As others state, cert item sells faster and for a higher price. I remember buying a Scorpions signed album on eBay for $25 because it had no Cert. Roger was kind enough to validate up front, so the trigger pulled, and a good deal was had by some. I do not consider eBay a bastion of consumer protection, but hopefully a reasonable individual will agree that an uncertified Beatles autograph is more than likely a bomb waiting to go off on an unsuspecting buyer. Even if someone is the world's foremost Beatles expert trying to scoop a deal, why on earth would a seller list an item "as is" when it could be far more valuable with pedigree? Blind hogs do find acorns from time to time, but that is not the Darwin way.....

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on September 2, 2017 at 9:20am

I do the same exact work no matter the seller. I do not buy anything slabbed or with a sticker. I sometimes pay for an opinion when an assist in needed. Otherwise, I do the work/fun of authentication and the selection of qualities - it is my $ and my collection. If it goes down in flames it will be with my gasoline.

The opposite is also true.

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on September 2, 2017 at 11:15am

With the Beatles we now have a situation almost like the fine art market for classic or modern masters. A paintings is automatically regarded as genuine if the recognised authority agrees to catalogue it as a work by the artist (e.g. Monet). The painting is practically worthless without this seal of approval. Decorative value only.

Without naming names there are now two or perhaps three dealers who have now attained this "recognised authority" status as regards Beatles autographs and they can practically control the supply side of the market.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on September 2, 2017 at 11:45am

And NOT recognized even if genuine and this or that group, like that earlier Monet (Wildensteins), says no. It is interesting to look into those folks re taxes and other things. I was happy to see that last one accepted but that was rather bulletproof. The Warhol estate also...

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Permalink Reply by Bernie on September 2, 2017 at 12:03pm

So this opens another thread: "Is a TPA an "all purpose certification house or a specialty?" (ie do these guys are experts in ALL signatures?

And, how does a new entrant get "membership" in the "supply side club?" (which may already be "filled to capacity"

Just basically goes to show you how intricate this tangled web can get. At the risk of oversimplifying, TPA's became "Limited Liability Outlets" for AHs to sell expensive stuff. TPAs then realized they could bolster their income by certifying anything they could, and some clever marketing to put fear of God into people buying autos etc, hence the origin of slabbing and LoAs, and this has now become a main line of business with lots of advertising and grandstanding, and little accountability if they miss an issue (in either direction)

There may be a few dozen people here who trust their own skills to do the right thing, and that is fine, but I dare say this is akin to the "1%" of he population whereas the other 99% may be less certain or willing to entertain multiple points of view. I am well educated, methodical, but I do not have the time or passion that others have to become the subject matter expert on every signature. Do not get me wrong, it is fun and good to have this forum, but members should understand that not everyone has the skill set to be an expert on all signatures. Even then, true experts do accept other opinions. Do I value a TPA opinion more than those in this forum? Goo question. Answer is No if I know/trust/respect the person in the forum's track record, but, and this still remains, there is some value on some of the work the TPAs do. (This can also help explain my reluctance to send an item to a "blind" authenticator vs a "by name" person.

I would not even consider JSA or PSA for any music or non sport (not sure what to think of celebrities, never thought it over) as much as they may tout their capability, (or as long as Roger Epperson is around), but I would consider them for sports.

When it comes down to Presidential signatures, I have not invested enough time in that subject to venture an opinion, but I would think there is a limited set of experts who may truly be beyond reproach.

If it so happens that these experts then become the market makers (control the supply side), then welcome to capitalism. I suspect they put the time to build a reputation, thicken their sin to handle attacks, and go from there. At some point there is an element of trust. Otherwise, the logical implication is that I must become a Beatles autograph expert in order to successfully own an original Beatles auto because I should not trust others? Again, I would go to Tracks (sp), Roger, and the other fellow who used to do it but only does it on his own stuff now, and I would solicit input from this forum.....

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Permalink Reply by kevin conway on October 5, 2017 at 8:05am

Here you go. Case in point.

JFK Signature? Nice Try!

How could this garbage get Beckett certified, ...UNless within the "Good ole boy network"?

This absurdly indecipherable unidentifiable nonsense would NEVER get certified by an "outside" dealer or collector.

Mind boggling to say the least ! Autograph collecting as we once knew it took a nose dive in te late 1990s after the eBay forgery market prospered.., Now with the "questionable" authentication we see like this, who knows what will happen to the hobby in the next couple years...